Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

Because, out in the wider world and not just in your discreet group, it hasn't been reclaimed at all

Reclaiming implies 'taking back from'

I'll believe the pole has been reclaimed when it's only in the olympics and not in strip clubs. And when male athletes are performing all the same moves as females ones imagine

What do you think of this?

"Pole has already been reclaimed but women tend not to talk about it. I wonder why."

It patently hasn't. This thread alone shows that. If it had everyone would be perfectly happy with PoleTots classes in church halls across the country. Every Wednesday, £5 incl squash and a biscuit.

My First Pole in Early Learning Centres.

"Oh, is your Hermione struggling with her Crucifix? Jocasta mastered that a while ago, but say it as I shouldn't, she is naturally gifted..."

Except a 'my first pole' would be utterly unsafe (a bit like the daft bedroom poles that people can buy online to twirl a little on for their DP) so would not be appropriate at all in any way shape or form for any type of actual fitness.
All a 'my first pole' would do is promote the idea of walk around a pole and twirl a little, which is the total opposite of any type of fitness or athletic training that pole instructors and pole fitness people are trying to promote.

People are laughing about pole tots. There is a studio near me who offer a children's aerial class. They do a range of aerial and instructors are trained in children's aerial skills. I would happily send my children to a children's arerial class.
I would probably hold off on competitions on pole until their older because of the risk of seedy adults and people making nasty judgements about them though (as proven by this thread. Child in bikini at the beach is fine but child in sports shorts and a crop top, not fine)

Plus, I hate to point out the obvious logistical issues with pole tots in church halls.

Aerial studios actually have the right rigging to support poles, aerial silks, aerial hoop etc. They also have all the safety equipment.
Even if an aerial group in a church did try to run, I wouldn't send my child there. I would send them to a specialist aerial studio with instructors who aren't just qualified in the disciplines but who have also taken additional qualifications in working with children.

Some instructors do use x stages (which don't require rigging) but they are far and few between. Where I used to live you would have to travel over an hour to get to an aerial studio. Where I live now there's at least 4 within an hour's drive. All offer a range of classes. None of them are seedy.

in one breath people are claiming that pole dancing is reclaimed from all its sexual associations and is therefore a suitable pastime for 8 year old girls and in the next acknowledging that the main use of a domestic pole would be to titillate the DP. Which is it?

(And if you think that there are no DPs out there who would be titillated by a pole-dancing 8 year old you live in a different and nicer world than the one I live and work in)

If there are DPs out there that are going to be titilated by an 8 year old on a pole, surely the correct thing to do is to remove the 'DP' from the household and away from the child, and not to stop the child doing an activity that 'titilates' him. If he's getting thrills from watching a child on a pole, he will be getting thrills from watching the eight year old do other things.
This thread is depressing. There are people out there that will get sexual gratification from watching gymnastics, beach volleyball, dancing, and any number of other sports / activities. Should we stop all of the participants from doing something they enjoy?

Of course it is depressing. Nobody said otherwise.

There are lots of things we can do to reduce endemic sexual abuse of (mostly female) children.

One is to remove predators from direct contact with them, which we do but not very successfully.

Another is to refrain from contributing from a culture that presents little girls as legitimate objects of male sexual desire e.g. by encouraging them to engage in activities that clearly signify sexual availability. Pole dancing is one of the most obvious signifiers of sexuality and sexual availability that I can think of. Lots of men feel enabled by these sorts of messages.

in one breath people are claiming that pole dancing is reclaimed from all its sexual associations and is therefore a suitable pastime for 8 year old girls and in the next acknowledging that the main use of a domestic pole would be to titillate the DP. Which is it?
Because pole dancing DOES have a sexual side. Nobody would be silly enough to deny it does.

So shops do sell silly flimsy poles for bedrooms and they have safety warnings on them (because they are totally unsafe for actual pole fitness and climbs and inverts etc). The point of those poles is for women with zero training in pole to twirl a bit and spice it up in the bedroom. That is titilation.

But, pole dance is a broad discipline which is more than sexy dancing. (I pole and have NEVER done a sexy dance. I have zero desire to either)

The type of poles for bedroom titilation are totally different to proper pole fitness poles which are designed to safely hold people doing tricks and acro. (Put it this way no reputable aerial studio or strip club would have the flimsy twirl at home ones because they are unsafe for the demands of pole- whatever style you chose to do)

Why are people struggling to understand that pole dancing as a sexy performance is different to pole dancing as an athletic fitness hobby? It's really not thay difficult.

My point being that people making daft suggestions about buying 'my first pole' miss the point. A pole that anyone (whatever age, gender, chosen style of pole dance/fitness) would use for training needs to be safe.
Having an unsafe 'my first pole' would only promote the stupid idea that pole is all about twirling and looking pretty, which it isn't.

Simple:
Flimsy shop bought poles for any age
= not appropriate for actually learning pole fitness and acro
= only about twirling around and looking pretfy

Specialist well designed poles from reputable companiea
= safe
= able to be used by all ages
= come in a range of widths and heights
= suitable for acro training, pole fitness, kids aerial classes, lyrical pole, exotic sexy pole or any other type of pole you wish to do

Why are people struggling to understand that pole dancing as a sexy performance is different to pole dancing as an athletic fitness hobby? It's really not that difficult

The difficulty is that the video on the opening post is sexualised and I suppose that is the format which will be used in the Olympics. Calling it "pole dancing" as opposed to "pole" doesn't help- nor is it clear whether it is a discipline which will be available for men also.

What I am struggling with is certain posters refusal to accept that :-
(a) pole and aerial comes from a circus tradition and is thriving in that arena;
(b) men and women do it;
(c) by no means are skimpy costumes obligatory or the norm;
(d) that the huge , mixed, all ages audiences for this type of circus are not sitting there thinking oo this is just like a strip club; (that last one is actually pretty offensive to the aerial acrobats and the audience)

I hear you lass.

I've not attended a single pole class, performance night or anything where I have thought 'this is just like a strip club'.

Some of the mums in my group bring their kids along to class if they can't get a babysitter. Kids love climbing up the poles like monkeys or holding with one hand and running round and round yelling 'weeeeeeeee'.

Maybe it's the company I keep but everyone I know understands there is a difference between a fitness discipline and sexy dancing.

"People are laughing about pole tots. There is a studio near me who offer a children's aerial class. They do a range of aerial and instructors are trained in children's aerial skills. I would happily send my children to a children's arerial class"
Yes, so would I. In fact I did. So apart from the safety aspect you would have no problem at all with my new business venture - PoleTots?

A class for children isn't going to be teaching them twerking, they won't be doing hair flicks, wearing pleasers or doing body rolls so I wouldn't have a problem.

"A class for children isn't going to be teaching them twerking, they won't be doing hair flicks, wearing pleasers or doing body rolls so I wouldn't have a problem."

I thought that adult ones didn't either.

I think I 'all stet printing some flyers. I'm sure they'll go down rwlly well.

I think I 'all stet printing some flyers. I'm sure they'll go down rwlly well.

I think though you need to include all the disciplines of the sport, it's pointless if you leave out the parts from which you can make an excellent living if you're not Olympics material.

Also, you won't get to the Olympics without the seedy stuff. No one will get high marks for no erections in the judges err...boxes.

"A class for children isn't going to be teaching them twerking, they won't be doing hair flicks, wearing pleasers or doing body rolls so I wouldn't have a problem."
Exactly!

I thought that adult ones didn't either
Many don't.
Beginner classes teach you how to do some spins and how to climb into sits. It also includes the strength training for inverting (getting upside down on the pole)

Intermediate pole teaches more advanced spins, more inverts and tricks from inverts as well as how to do combinations of moves from one into the next. By intermediate you can probably do a reasonable job of a strength or acro routine.

I have to say most of us in my class are far from graceful and anything but sexy. We are strong though.

Learning pole flow (the dance side of it and the artistic side) is often a separate class and that cam be done in a range of styles. I would love a class in lyrical or contemporary pole flow but there's none near me.

You can of course opt for classes in exotic pole or sexy pole flow if that is a style you are interested in. Someome i know did say she attended a pole class that was about them learning routines. No strength or conditioning, just how to do basic semi-sexy routines.

As many of us have been saying, there is a sexy side of pole but it is separate to it as a fitness discipline.

I thought the OPs video showed exactly why pole dancing should not be in the Olympics - very sexualised, skimpy outfit which looks like underwear rather than bikini etc.
And the video of the 8 year old was just horrendous. Why would you allow your daughter to appear on tv doing this? Surely you would know that pervs would use this as the ultimate wank fodder. Awful.

So you can call it 'pole' and argue that it's not sexy when it's done in the gym but while those other videos are out there, while bedroom poles are available to buy, while men pay money to watch women do this it will always be associated with the sex industry and everything which is damaging to women and girls.

I wouldn't allow my child on TV doing it because there are disturbing pervs out there. I would equally not want them on TV doing any dance type performance for thay reason.

I've already said I would save competitions and performances until they were older because sadly there is still a stigma. But me making a decision on public performance because of stigma wouldn't affect me allowing my child to go to an aerial class.

while bedroom poles are available to buy, while men pay money to watch women do this it willalwaysbe associated with the sex industry
I would just like to credit people with more intellect that a discipline CAN be sexy or it CAN be for fitness.

Street dance/hip hop can be fun and for fitness and yet twerking is a sexy move. I wouldn't argue all hip hop dance is damaging to women because some women slut drop and twerk.

I thought that adult ones didn't either.

Some adult ones do. Adults should have the choice what sort of pole they want to do. Some women want to be strippers, that's up to them. That doesn't mean children should be doing anything other than gymnastics on the pole

Her performance was amazing but it is a performance like all forms of dance not a sport

And yes the pole is a phallic symbol are we supposed to overlook that

Can see where this is going though as women’s sport is no longer women’s sport it’s also men who claim that they too are women and judging by how powerful their lobby is and how so many transwomen are caricatures of higly sexualised women this so called sport will no doubt be in the Olympics soon