Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

"Do you really not understand the difference between circus performers using a pole as part of an aerial act and a stripper?"

Of course I do.

Then why the comment about me then? The performers I am defending are circus performers. Do you think this young woman is just a stripper?

I would never say any woman was "just a stripper".

That is a bit disengenous but I will rephrase it. Do you think she is performing a sexualised routine- no different from a stripper?

Do you think the mixed audience for that show, including children, thought she was no different from a stripper?

The problem is that maybe there should be different categories of pole dancing, but the way society is currently structured, there isn't.

Lass that is a beautiful performance. I think very different from the ‘Why I dance’ one posted a few pages back (which I found very sexualised). I also found the Karen Sven one sexualised. Those are my opinions, though.

I think with the circus one, I could imagine a man doing it; i am not sure if the same is true of the pole dancing videos on this thread.

They do parcour outside my office, I am always worried they will misjudge it. But I haven’t seen anyone pole dancing with a lamp post yet. A giant hula hoop yes, but not a lamp post.

Because all the way through this thread there's absolutely loads of conflating the various styles into one category, and conveniently the version of pole that it all gets represented as is the sexy pole (which then can be combined with 'sex work', 'strip clubs', 'gyrating', 'children' etc as required tp shock whilsy ignoring or dismissing countless people saying that ut's a broad discipline).

As I say (and have said multiple times), there are different types of pole. Lumping them all together and using the 'sex' element as the golden argument doesn't make any logical sense.

Until that very basic fact is accepted (and it is a fact. I don't like all styles of dance but they exist. I don't personally want to do all types of pole but they exist) then any debate is pointless because it fails to consider the fact that pole is a varied discipline.

The problem is that maybe thereshouldbe different categories of pole dancing, but the way society is currently structured, there isn't.
But people are starting to move to this.
This is what I am saying (& have been for ages!)
People are saying there's contemporary pole, lyrical pole, acro pole, pole flow (in a range of styles), doubles pole, triples pole, pole workouta, exotic pole for women, pole for strip clubs.

As long as pole's critics don't engage with the fact that these differences exist then the chance to move forward is limited because lumping them all into one category based on a common assumption of one prominent stereotype is untrue and unhelpful.

I would love there to be more promotion of pole in differnet forms and then people can make informed decisions and we can shift attitudes on the different types. It also makes it easier for pole critics to be clear on different elements they don't like or have issues with because there's less lazy lumping together of different styles.

The problem is that maybe there should be different categories of pole dancing, but the way society is currently structured, there isn't

The video I linked to was from a sell out Edinburgh Fringe show. It got rave reviews from critics and has toured world-wide. The show has no age restrictions. There was nothing in which was not suitable for children. Yet you apparently think it was lik a strip show.

Should the company have dropped that part of the show because you think a pole means It is a sex show? It was actually magical- she was soaring 15- 20' in the air, fully clothed apart from bare feet.

Lass that is a beautiful performance. I think very different from the ‘Why I dance’ one posted a few pages back (which I found very sexualised). I also found the Karen Sven one sexualised. Those are my opinions, though

I don't like the Karo Swen one. I said that right at the beginning.

I think with the circus one, I could imagine a man doing it; i am not sure if the same is true of the pole dancing videos on this thread

Men do the circus type of acts. I'm not keen on most of the videos but I do take exception to Laura Moy's performance being dismissed as titillation.

"As I say (and have said multiple times), there are different types of pole. Lumping them all together and using the 'sex' element as the golden argument doesn't make any logical sense"

Well, I am bored of saying I'm not doing that. So I think I'm opting out now. But I have to say that it is deeply depressing that the feminist struggle has been reduced to the right to "pole" .

But you are lumping them together. I am defending the circus type acts and you had a go at me for that.

I said right at the beginning I did not like the one in the OP or see the need for skimpy costumes.

It's coming across like bertrand thinks there's only one way to be a feminist. Its perfectly possible to be both a feminist and enjoy pole, as long as you're open minded and not someone who believes they know best and that they have the right to restrict other women's choices.

How are pole participants having their choices restricted?

I thought the circus act Lass posted was quite different from most of the videos on this thread and if they were all like that I would see no problem.

The reason I got involved in this thread in the first place was the very disturbing video posted by maisy depicting a prepubescent girl in a bikini dancing on a pole for the gaze of two middle-aged male 'judges' (the camera seemed less interested in the reactions of the female judge). At the end of the day, I can't get past the feeling that anything at all that promotes this kind of scenario as appropriate or OK is a bad idea. I've given my reasons upthread.

I think the arguments made by pro-pole posters are valid. I think my arguments are valid. But I think child protection (and protection of women) is more important than having a fun hobby. I don't think I really have anything to add to that

Lass the performer you have been posting is able to wear clothes because she's using a silicone coated pole. Chinese poles also often have a rubber coating. Bare skin gets ripped on silicone/rubber pokes, it's very 'grippy'. Pole dance/poke art/pole sport completions are done on chrome, brass or stainless steel poles. So are pole classes. These pole's are thinner than circus/Chinese poles. To move on them relies on skin grip, usually 3 points of contact - example, knee pit, back of tricep, back of neck. Or inner calf, inner thigh, back of armpit. Or hip , belly, Elbow. You can do a few moves fully clothed on a chrome pole but for most you need skin grip. To flow between moves you need to take off most of your clothing.

I hope that explains why we wear shorts and sports bras.

Sorry typos in haste on phone

I do not want to be protected. I enjoy being sexual and I enjoy dancing in a way that is strong and athletic and sexy. It gives me enormous joy. I love how fellow polers cheer and clap each other on. A group of women lost in sensual flow, rolling their hips, stamping their feet, throwing themselves upsidedown and leaping through the air in slow motion is a beautiful powerful thing. A healing thing. A fucking sacred thing.

There is a difference between 'sexualised' and 'sexual'. It's ok to dance in a way that feels sexy and is sexy. It's also ok to feel that you do not want to be surrounded by people who are feeling sexy and enjoying themselves doing sexy sensual stuff when you want a hardcore workout. Which is why we have different types of pole classes and different pole genres and different competitions and different people we follow on Instagram who all do different things.

You find your tribe and you find your thing. Everyone is cool with it.
It's great. I wish more people understood just how great it is. I swim, practice astanga yoga and karate, sometimes dabble in cross fit. None of the other things are remotely comparable to the support, camaraderie and inspiration I get from my pole family.

Lass my comments about the Karen Sven video and indeed men doing the circus acts were my own reflections. I was not attributing the view that it was sexualised to you. Simply reflecting on the comparison. I only wrote your name at the start as I was watching the video you posted - which I actually viewed a couple of times and enjoyed - which started my thoughts.

I was tired, so maybe not as clear as I might have been.

You might not want protected muffster but don't you think girls should be?

The dance school where DD works now has a pole studio. She has had a go at a couple of classes but didn't like it that much. She did say that she didn't understand why they insisted on shiny, slippy poles - she didn't like the sensation of it against her skin. If they had poles made of grippier material, surely the range of movements would be greater, and performers could choose to be fully clothed if they wanted?

The studio also has aerial hoops, which have grippy tape on them. DD was a gymnast for years and all the equipment has a slightly grippy surface. Even a rhythmic gymnast's apparatus has grip tape.

I've looked at the videos and I honestly can't see any category of pole as nonsexual. It's a woman grasping and rolling up and down a big phallic symbol. Really arousing. Glad that lots of people enjoy doing it, it's a free country.

CocoaXx

Lass my comments about the Karen Sven video and indeed men doing the circus acts were my own reflections. I was not attributing the view that it was sexualised to you

Sorry, I think you may have taken my reply the wrong way. I'm glad you liked it and I agree with your other posts.

is there a youtube video of a pole dancer who is bog standard non sexy and where her bikini and flowing hair doesn't form part of the routine?

I already posted a video exactly like this