Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

I agree these women are incredibly skilled and athletic. And I enjoy sports involving strength and balance and flexibility.

I'd be 100% behind an effort to involve more little girls in martial arts or parkour or to increase the visibility and sponsorship of elite female rock climbers or similar

I wouldn't claim to know what motivates your spite towards non-sexual pole fitness. It makes zero sense to me why people would be so opposed to a fitness discipline thry have no interest in themselves.

I can understand having a number of concerns about the sexy side and exotic pole. (Which i have said multiple times)

I personally think exotic pole should be only for over 18s and if a woman opts to do
exotic pole then good for her. I know you would disagree with me on that and I entirely understand why you feel that way. I can see the logic in that view.

I don't understand the logic of grouping non sexy pole fitness in with exotic pole and then pretending they are the same and both damaging to women.

Neonrainbow Agree. It's all about but what if men see and find it attractive.
I don't give a damn if men decide my non sexy pole fitness is arousing. It's not for their benefit and I'm not going to tip toe around in case 'men think...' I wear high heels and short dresses when I go out because I feel awesome. Might some men think it's a vaguely ok sight? Yes. Should i not dress that way in case a man sees and decides he likes what he sees? No.

Do you feel deep down it would legitimise what you are doing? If so it would seem like really you agree with what we are saying regarding its associations.
I don't need to legitimise my training. My friends & family don't chat bollocks about it and suggest it's some sleezy dicipline for the benefit of men.

I accept there are associations out there. I also think that promoting the non sexy side of pole helps move away from those. Rather than keep it hidden away as something taboo, which only reinforces the silly idea that the primary purpose of pole is to turn men on (which it isb't).

As long as there are gymnastics and figure skating then I will consider pole to be on par with them.
If someone thinks that those sorts of sports are too performance based and should be removed (and with that pole shouldn't be in) then I can see their logic.

What i don't get is:
Doing a split on the ice = sport
Doing a split on the pole = not sport
Doing a straddle or mounts in gymnastics = sport
Doing straddles in pole = obviously sexual and suggestive
Acro tricks on a horizontal bar = sport
Acro tricks on a vertical bar = not sport
Floor work in gymnastics = sport
Floor work in pole = not a sport

It's inconsistent and makes no sense

"I wouldn't claim to know what motivates your spite towards non-sexual pole fitness"

But you're happy to call me spiteful?

"It's all about but what if men see and find it attractive."

No it isn't.

Not knowing why someone would be spiteful and getting the impression they are are two different things.

I would understand any of the following for example:
I have concerns about the origins of pole and its continued use in strip clubs
I have reservations about junior classes because...
I think we have to be careful how pole and pole fitness are presented to make aure that it is about female empowerment and not titilating shows for men
I don't think pole should be classed as a sport because it is more of a performance art and really some gymnastics and figure skating probably falls into that category too and shouldn't be in

What I don't understand is
Pole (without any attempt at differentiating the types) is damaging
When people show different types brushing it off saying they are all the same/bordering on identical and it's not appropriate
It's fine for individual women to do it but really the entire discipline is bad for women and women don't always make good choices for themselves
Pole shouldn't be promoted or normalised
Pole for juniors is all about sexualising children
Pole point blank shouldn't be a sport but other comparable sports are totally fine
We should be doing everything possible to show how awful pole is so that attitudes towards it never change (even though the discipline has)

So you don't accept that some people might be applying a feminist analysis to this issue? We're just motivated by personal spite towards women we don''t know and cannot possibly have any animus towards?

I do accept a feminist analysis, but I would say grouping sexy pole and non sexy pole somewhat hinders a meaningful discussion about the way forward abd leads to the same old 'but historically...' stuff being rehashed.

Grouping both together, taking the piss out of junior classes with 'my first pole' and arguing against promotion etc does feel spiteful. Nothing is to be gained from it.

There's lots to discuss and debate, but I do think that to have a sensible discussion we need to stop acting like all 'pole' is the same old sexy titilation stuff it was (& is still in some quarters).

Just out of interest, do men do reclaimed forms of pole dancing? And if not, why not?

In circuses, yes , men definitely use poles. There are links on here to male pole performers and you will find plenty on YouTube.

Maisy isn't talking about "pole dancing" - she is talking about acrobatic/athletic use of a pole as a piece of equipment.

gosh I just can't decide. On the one hand it's beautiful, athletic and requires a lot of skill. On the other it's very sexualized and is there a youtube video of a pole dancer who is bog standard non sexy and where her bikini and flowing hair doesn't form part of the routine?

Yes lots of men do pole.

@MaisyPops youve got it.

It is mysoginistic to believe women's choices should be restricted because you aren't personally comfortable with it. It doesnt matter if you call yourself a feminist if your words and actions are mysoginistic.

How are we defining 'spite' here? Not the usual definition, it seems.

is there a youtube video of a pole dancer who is bog standard non sexy and where her bikini and flowing hair doesn't form part of the routine?

I posted one of a circus acrobat using a pole. She was wearing mid- calf length white cotton trousers and a top with bracelet length sleeves. She fails your standard of acceptable because she has long hair which obviously moves along with the rest of her body



There are men who attend my classes and men who attend othet local studios.
It's women dominated though.

Someone on facebook took their son and daughter to a class when she didnt have childcare. The videos were adorable.

There's lots to discuss and debate, but I do think that to have a sensible discussion we need to stop acting like all 'pole' is the same old sexy titilation stuff it was (& is still in some quarters).

I don't think that is quite accurate. Feminists don't 'need' to accept your opinion of pole dancing at all to be able to look at it squarely. You're free to pole dance and consider it an entirely non sexual activity in the manner of shot putting if you like, but I don't need to accept that.

I think Maisy has been referring to "pole" rather than "pole dancing" to distinguish the athletic/ acrobatic use of pole from the strip club pole dancing.

The continued use of phrases like "you are free to pole dance" is beginning to look a little spiteful.

I do aerial. I don't do pole. I have issues with pole - a) the history/baggage of pole and b) the fact that I'd need to expose my stomach and thighs and probably have a bikini wax to do it. I know b is my own personal hang-up, but I can do everything else I enjoy doing in leggings and a t-shirt and I don't want to strip off - I'd swim a lot more if not for this too. I don't get into arguments with the people who do pole as well as aerial, because I'm polite, but I don't agree with them that it's empowering. And I dont think Chinese pole is the same thing as pole dancing. Also I've seen some amazing pole routines, but when watching them I was grimly aware of the problematic elements of pole in a way that I wasn't with the aerial arts in the same exhibition.

Is it like the difference between "gollywogs" and "gollys"?

I am feeling quite sad about your involvement in this, Lass.

What I mean to say is that one can be part of the magical world (using your terminology) and still think it's a problem. Like hermione starting SPEW, even if everyone else thought having an enslaved magical race was fine.

mary

Is Chinese pole the very bendy tall one?

I am feeling quite sad about your involvement in this, Lass

I am feeling sad that anyone could look at the video I posted and come to the conclusions on here that the acrobat there was just the same as a pole dancer in a strip club- and worse the assumption that the audience thought that too.

That's my point lass.
By refusing to accept or consider that the reality of pole is much more nuanced than 'sexy pole dancing' it makes any debate sort of pointless, especially when it comes back to 'not everyone has to agree that therr any many varieties' (when there clearly are) 'well that's not how i want to define it so i will continue to say it's one big single discipline because that suits my anti pole agenda'. If the only intention is to go 'pole is awful and degrading and all about sex and i don't like it' then why even bother joining a discussion. The intent then isn't a debate, it's an echo chamber or very active debate between people who have broadly the same view. I'm sure Chomsky had something on that about very lively debate but only within narrow parameters.

mary what you show there is a polite and reasonable view e.g. this is personally my view but I'm not going to be judgey or dismiss the experiences of others.
I have issues with it as a way of satisfying men's needs. If women want to train in that area then more power to them but I don't like it.

Lots of us are saying we are also unhappy with other comparables such as the floor routine in gymnastics which is generally more sexualised than rest of it, done to music etc. Though the outfits are a bit less skimpy. It's not just pole which make many of us uncomfortable.

Is it like the difference between "gollywogs" and "gollys"?

I am feeling quite sad about your involvement in this, Lass

Are you seriously saying the young woman in the video I posted is no different from a stripper?

Do you really not understand the difference between circus performers using a pole as part of an aerial act and a stripper?

"If the only intention is to go 'pole is awful and degrading and all about sex and i don't like it' then why even bother joining a discussion"

Why do you keep saying that anyone is saying this? Nobody has said anything of the sort. Debate is impossible if you persist in misrepresenting the people who don't agree with you.