Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

I suppose as well, I am prepared to put effort into trying to change the way women are viewed by society but I'm not prepared to put any effort into changing the way pole dancing is viewed by society.............

What is being done to challenge the perception that pole is inherently sexual?

Having a pole sport NOTE - SPORT organization governing body with rules and codes of practice and points for moves and competitions with rules like no gluteal fold must be shown, no heel etc (there are other pole art and dance completions where heels and sexiness is allowed).

Applying for Olympic consideration to make a point.

Having classes clearly labeled as pole fitness.

Taking time to explain repeatedly in threads like these.

And so on. All this has been going on for almost a decade now.

And yet.

As I have said I don't personally care if Olympic pole ever becomes a thing. I actually think it will have a detrimental effect and make it all about gymnastics and for me one of the things I love about our pole world is the huge range of styles and creativity and inclusion and acceptance there is. If you want to train handstands and handsprings on the pole in jeans do it. If you want to drop split in eight inch heels when eight months pregnant you do it. If you want to waft about in a floaty skirt to Clannad you do it. Male, female, trans, young, old, nobody cares. There is no right way to pole. It is magic to be amongst people who think like this. And it's the most feminist place I've ever inhabited.

Sorry Lass I forgot about the video you posted! I agree, that one didn't look sexualised to me

"presumably nobody is clutching their pearls."

It's actually quite difficult to have a conversation with people who say disparaging things like that......

But. Dancing is often sexy, and sensual. Sport isn't. And Maisy wants pole to be a sport. Copeland's routine was both sexy and sensual. Why would I have an issue with that? Not sure how it's relevant. Unless you are going to be tedious and say that people objecting tonpole are doing it out of prudishness?

Although I did think it would actually have looked better with a couple more inches of material in the top of the leotard. I've made leotards in the past so I can't help thinking about fit.

Muffler nobody is saying women shouldn't perform sensual dance routines. People are unhappy about the idea of conflating sensual dance routines with women's sport and with children's hobbies.

Argh! Muffster I'm really not doing this on purpose, I'm a bit sleep-deprived

Ok. So. Ballet dancers can perform sensually and erotically charged dances in tiny leotards and they can also perform non-suggestive displays of grace and athleticism, competively. Children attend ballet classes and everyone understands they are not going to be performing stuff like Misty's video. And even though ballet dancers were originally viewed as risqué and as sexually impure people changed their minds over time and now it's fine.

Equally pole dancers can perform athletic acrobatic non sexual routines in pole sport competitions or they can do sexy flow - if included in the Olympics it would be the former you'd see. If you took kids to a pole class, or went along to a conditioning and pole fit class it would be the athletic non sexy stuff too.

It's a double standard. Pole people feel they get an unfairly prejudiced reaction and the push to highlight the athletic and acro side is an attempt to get people to stop being shitty about what we do. Belittling it, dismissing it, shaming us for it, constantly banging on about it being to titillate the male gaze blah blah blah.

Ugh so annoying. And now I am off to pole dance.

Quote from bertrand upthread...

" Not all choices women make are good for themselves or other women"

Taken in context with the bit you quoted, that comes across to me like you feel you have the right to argue against and restrict other women's choices because you personally are uncomfortable with decisions they make that "aren't good for themselves". Who are you to decide that a woman who does pole is making a choice that isn't good for herself?

"And even though ballet dancers were originally viewed as risqué and as sexually impure people changed their minds over time and now it's fine"

All women performers were regarded that way. It took many many years for the perception to change.

My focus is on how women are viewed and how to improve that. It is not on how pole dancing is viewed and how to improve that.

More listening and less 'viewing' might be helpful I think. If people - women - say over and over and over what they are doing and why they do it - but you cannot hear, you can only 'view' it - and view it from a male gaze - then maybe it's time to close your eyes and listen harder. Your view may not be as clear as you think. I do not see what you see.

You seem to think that if only I tried harder I would stop thinking that the nornalization of pole dancing is bad for women. I have actually though quite hard about this sort of stuff for a very long time!

Muffster I've been thinking about this and it's not possible to have it both ways. Either pole is performance art or a sport. Art can be 'sporty' - athletic and physically strenuous - of course. But it's not just that. People approach a performance with a reflective, open mindset. What does the performance communicate? How do I feel about it? The artist has agency. It's expected that the audience will reflect on the reasoning behind a particular costume, expressive movements etc. We have permission to do that. It's relevant.

In competitive sport it's all about physical ability and stamina. People do not watch female Olympians shot put, run a marathon or play football and think 'I wonder what she's trying to communicate'. They want to see what she can do. Celebrate achievements, commiserate losses, enjoy the competition etc. We are not invited to approach sport with a reflective mindset, nor is it necessary. Clothing should be irrelevant (which is why I'd prefer to see e.g. female gymnasts and beach volleyballers wear similar clothes to the men).

Approaching the pole vids from a performance art mindset works. Not to my personal taste but that's not relevant. But you can't expect people to approach those videos with a sport mindset and look out for references to racism. Certainly no more than they would when watching the cricket world cup.

I have to say I didn't like the pole video that bertrand is objecting to and I can't disagree with the points made.

I do still think you won t find much sexualised with someone like Marion crampe but I haven't watched masses of her videos, she's just someone I admire as a huge contributor to pole fitness

In the true spirit of Family Fortunes if you asked a hundred people what they first think of when seeing a pole dancer I imagine the highest results will be strippers, sex, Athose ridiculous Perspex stilettos and porn. Sport might score 4. I also wager ‘alternative circus’ would get a big fuck off X.

You can argue about its athleticism all you want. It’s association will always be with seedy clubs.

And Maisy wants pole to be a sport.
I do.
I want it to be valued like dance and gymnastics which have different styles and are valued for their diversity.

It does have associations of strip clubs at the moment but there's a lot if work being done to shift perceptions. It takes time and I'm ok with that.

Mai's you, I'm still wondering what you meant when you said that those of us who object to the idea of normalizing pole are spiteful.

What do you think motivates our spite?

Maisy, that should be.

I think nashville has nailed it with the family fortunes suggestion.
Most people associate pole with strip clubs and horrible shoes.
maisy I'm sure it is extremely physically challenging, like ballet, Latin dancing etc. But they are regarded as performance/art etc. Why is that not good enough for pole? Why are you so determined that it's a sport? Do you feel deep down it would legitimise what you are doing? If so it would seem like really you agree with what we are saying regarding its associations. None of us are saying it's not hard work, it's just not pure sport in the way athletics is. And it's got no place in the Olympics

I think that muffster has hit the nail on the head. You're viewing this entirely from what pole offers men. You're not thinking at all of what it offers women, which has already been covered extensively by other posters. If we all just go "its sleazy and awful and that's that" then how would perceptions ever change? Should we all just shrug and say "well that's something women only do to turn on men and that's bad"? Or should we all try to think a little deeper than that?

I don't know anyone who does pole so that they can work in strip clubs. I know lots of women of ALL shapes and sizes who do it because its a great form of exercise.

Don't get me started on ballet. Or opera 😱

Just because we have misogynist messages coming at us from all directions doesn't mean we have to join in

Yes all the posters who are seeing this through 'the male gaze' are actually being misogynistic. Not really seeing this as a highly skilled athletic activity that women want to do. How depressing.
Should we get rid of all athletic activities which require tight and revealing clothing? I would suggest that the objectors aren't interested in sport and never really took part in it. MN collectively hates school sport imo. and sport in general.

"Not really seeing this as a highly skilled athletic activity that women want to do. How depressing."

I am most definitely seeing it as a highly skilled athletic activity. Sadly, it is also an activity that is damaging to the way women are viewed in society. These two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Those of us who oppose the mainstreaming of pole dancing have actually thought about these things, you know. It's not that we don't understand and just need education........

We are all agreeing that it's athletic and skilled derxa. Doesn't make it a sport or mean it should be in the Olympics

BTW re ballet I'm not a fan either, at school the girls all had to do dancing and the boys did cross country. I refused to do the dancing and went and ran in the muddy playing field instead

Since when was misogyny defined as a feminist discussion on an activity that some women choose to do as a hobby?

Just because a particular woman does something, it doesn't mean it's performed in the name of feminism. Adults can choose do whatever they want, but "I enjoy my hobby" has got nothing to do with how much something contributes to patriarchy. The weight of dismantling patriarchy doesn't fall on an individual's shoulders, but surely that's why most are posting here.