Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

girlwhowearsglasses
Yup. So you let cheerleading present their discipline freely without saying 'argh it shouldn't br promoted' and then discuss it sensibly. Rather than saying 'i don't like cheerleading and think it's damaging so it shouldn't be promoted'

betrand but you wouldn't have said the routines seemed sexual if the bar was horizontal.
They weren't sexual routines.
Google exotic pole and watch videos. There are millions of videoa of very sexual pole. The routines linked to on here aren't.

rufus people have said that it shouldn't be promoted or normalised and in order to do that keep going on about children copying sex workers (which is a totally disingenuous argument because they aren't). That sort of conparison is only used to go 'ooh look how awful it is'. I mean if children were copying sexy dances from stip clubs then it would absolutely be troubling. The thing is they aren't.
If pole fitness classes were all about telling women thry dance or perform pole tricks for men, then it would be troubling. But they aren't.

By all means have a personal dislike of pole. But there's no reason to be disingenuous with the 'shock horror. Look it's all about sex' when people with experience are saying otherwise and then countering experiences with 'maybe but it still is sexual to sone people so it shouldn't be promoted'

The bloke doing Indian pole didn't look sexy at all to me, but I have to say that all the videos of women and girls that I have got round to watching have looked pretty sexualised.

And as has been argued upthread, the association between women on poles and sex has been (and continues to be) so strongly established that even an unsexualised routine might come across as sexualised if that makes sense.

And as has been argued upthread, the association between women on poles and sex has been (and continues to be) so strongly established that even an unsexualised routine might come across as sexualised if that makes sense.
I agree. The link is very much there in society. It's why I would be happy for my child to do classes but noy compete til they were older. I can put up with the disparaging crap but kids shouldn't have to.

The solution in my mind at least is to educate and promote the range of disciplines within pole and then let people make informed opinions on each elemenf rather than focusing on the shock 'sex' angle.

Attitudes change over time. Why shouldn't attitudes to pole change? And more importantly, why should people actively want to stop change that promotes a non sexual discipline?

I don't think I've ever felt sexual doing pole. Strong, fit, athletic, flexible, proud of my body and myself, sore and bruised, confident better describe the experiences in my classes.

I don't go on about children copying sex workers. My point is that if it's just all about fun and fitness why are there no pole classes for toddlers-because I bet they would love it. The disingenuousness came from people saying that it was all about safety and not addressing the actual question.

"But there's no reason to be disingenuous with the 'shock horror. Look it's all about sex'"

Nobody's saying this either. The rhumba is all about sex. No shock horror there. This is all about how women are perceived by society.

To those of us who aren't invested in pole it just seems so unnecessary. There are lots of alternative ways of developing strength and flexibility and using ones body (swimming, climbing, gymnastics etc). Popularising pole risks reinforcing views of women, girls and female athletes as fundamentally there to titillate the male gaze whereas these other disciplines promote women as strong, independent and athletic in their own right. It just doesn't seem worth it.

I do hope thats a general comment

I havent been disingenuous at all

And i dont think many people on here been either

My point is that if it's just all about fun and fitness why are there no pole classes for toddlers-because I bet they would love it.
The disingenuousness came from people saying that it was all about safety and not addressing the actual question.
Safety is not disingenuous.
I mentioned safety in response to stupid comments about my first pole in the early learning centre and how 'if pole was really a sport why don't we see my first poles. Oh wait we don't because it's not acceptable'. They would be unsafe and as ridiculous as the silly titilating bedroom poles that can be bought. In other words fundamentally unsafe for doing acro tricks. Fact.
On pole groups there are videos of people injuring themselves using cheaper poles that don't meet safety standards for doing tricks.

Next point on safety - poles need to be safe. Often that means having them installed in a building. References to 'oh but we don't see pole tots in church halls' miss this point. Church halls are not, in my experience, built to support poles (assuming the instructors have got proper poles that are safe for tricks). So chances of them running in your average church hall are slim, unless you happen to have an instructor that makes enough money thry can afford to get x stages (portable poles with weighted bases). For something portable they are bloody heavy. Last time I took an x pole somewhere it took 3 of us to carry and sort it.
If you have a church hall thay can support compression poles then you need ti check the hall are ok with having the ceiling/floor potentially damaged by regularly putting up and taking down poles and make sure that they have enough points in the room to put up enough poles ti make the class viable.

Next safety point - instructors must be qualifies specialists to run safe classes. There are separate coaching certificates foe coaching children rather than adults. So you'll not only need a pole instructor in your area but they really should be qualified to coach children.

Then you look at timing. Most toddler classes are during the day. Every pole instructor I know works a 9-5 job and the pole instructing is done on an evening. How many people would be turning out at 7/8pm to do pole tots?

To run a children's pole class you need to consider all of that.
Assuming you've sorted it all then you need to publicise (and have enough demand ti run the class and make it viable). That's quite difficult when you've got people outraged at the idea of kids doing some acro tricks on a vertical bar.

Hardly as simple as rocking up to a church hall on a tueaday morning.

And then it becomes really clear why all the children's classes I know of near me are:

• ran in a bespole aerial studio
• ran in a combined dance and aerial studio

Because there you have:

• the facilities to do it safely
• qualified instructors
• Saturday morning spaces for the little ones to avoid the evening issues
• parents who know the studio so know it's not about getting their kids to mimic strip routines. They ready trust the studio
• there's a reasonably secure demand to make it viable because parents know the above

Unsurprisingly, that is why there are classes for kids but they are not everywhere.

There's an implication that anti-pole posters are motivated by prudishness. To be absolutely clear, I'm not shocked by sex, I'm shocked by the unequal power relations that are inherent in a tradition in which women gyrate on poles and men get off on it

I'm shocked by the unequal power relations that are inherent in a tradition in which women gyrate on poles and men get off on it
I agree.
What I'm saying is there is a difference between pole fitness, lyrical or contemporary pole or acro pole and the gyratinh exotic pole that occurs for the benefit of men.

I feel we'd move forward more if that distinction was more widely considered.

What do you think is behind our "spite"?

Krusper, Bertrand, I am shocked and rather sad that you looked at Belcher performing THAT piece and saw 'woman withing in flesh colored bra and shorts' and 'the pole, her costume and that song...troubling'.

Her costume is supposed to be suggesting rags or nudity because she is making a point about the degradation, oppression and appropriation of Black bodies (she ends up hanging from the pole in a lynching). It is utterly relevant to her dance. Bra and shorts are as already discussed necessary for the skin grip needed to hold the pole. She is not 'writhing' she is dancing - performing the mandatory skill moves and transitions forbthe level she is competing at and using them to tell a story about oppression and civil rights. The audience is judges and people supportive of (or competing in) pole sport. She is not performing in a sexual manner. Her piece would fit well at Sadlers Wells during a contemporary dance festival both in terms of message, costume, skill, movements and performance. It would look totally out of place at a strip club.

I honestly think you see a pole and the innate prejudices are so ingrained that you simply cannot get past them. It is a piece of equipment, no less than a hoop or rope or swing for an a dancer to use. If you look at THAT famous dance and still have a gut reaction about sex clubs (but don't, for example if it was performed by a dancer of colour in a rags/nude-seeming costume in a contemporary dance show) then I think that there's no point in any poler trying to keep talking with you or sharing why we love this apparatus.

I do hoop, silks, trapeze as well by the way but pole is my love, specifically spin pole flow. I dance barefoot and in heels, contemporary, acro and classique, and also train doubles with my dance partner. My regards to a fellow aerialist, your trapeze loving daughter, Bertrand. I hope one day you both change your minds.

To those of us who aren't invested in pole it just seems so unnecessary. There are lots of alternative ways of developing strength and flexibility and using ones body (swimming, climbing, gymnastics etc). Popularising pole risks reinforcing views of women, girls and female athletes as fundamentally there to titillate the male gaze... It just doesn't seem worth it.

Ghengis nailed it for me here. I very much bracket pole with cheerleading in this respect.

Muffster I thought that the discussion was at least partly to do with pole as a sport? Pole as performance art I can see. It's a hard sell as sport though, for me at least.

"If you look at THAT famous dance and still have a gut reaction about sex clubs"
I didn't think sex clubs. I am not entirely clear what I thought but I had a very strong visceral objection to the idea of a woman costumed to look naked dancing to that particular song. And yes I suppose it is impossible to avoid the associations of the pole-particularly coupled to the nudity. I just thought that it was in extremely poor taste.

In 'poor taste' of Crystal, a woman of colour to make a point about the subjection, and objectification, oppression and ultimately degradation (and murder) of Black bodies by choosing her music and her costume and creating her routine precisely to make that point? But if she had the same costume and music but the dance was just floorwork on a stage rather than using a pole would it be ok?

Seriously?

Just my opinion, muffster.

The bloke doing Indian pole didn't look sexy at all to me, but I have to say that all the videos of women and girls that I have got round to watching have looked pretty sexualised

What on earth is sexualised about the one I linked to (Flown)?

And do we have problems with this video of Misty Copeland?
m.youtube.com/watch?v=CLcEtD5EXgw

muffster
You're wasting your time.
It won't mattet what routine you share. The claim is 'when i see a pole routine that isn't sexual then i'll accept it isn't sexual' but the very existence of a pole in any of the routines is enough for some to claim it's sexual.
It's a no win situation that superficially says 'I'm open to other views' whislt really not being at all.

"It's a no win situation that superficially says 'I'm open to other views' whislt really not being at all"
Thing is, you don't seem to be open to the idea that the normalisation of
pole dancing into the mInstream is damaging to women.....
Muffler- was that the right video?

Incidentally, it wasn't just the pole that made me feel uncomfortable about the Strange Fruit video. I think I would have been nearly as uncomfortable without it.

I'm open to the idea that normalising exotic pole and the pole of strip clubs can be damaging to women.

I'm not convinced some pole fitness classes focusing on strength and tricks is damaging.

What I'm doing (which many anti pole people aren't) is drawing a distinction between elements the discipline that are about titilation/are sexualised and elements that aren't. It's that simple.

What I'm doing (which many anti pole people aren't) is drawing a distinction between elements the discipline that are about titilation/are sexualised and elements that aren't. It's that simple."

So how do you suggest that is done? There seems to be a hell of a lot of crossover.....

I know I'm wasting my time but the video of Misty Copeland was picked deliberately. She's a woman of colour with a similar body to Crystal Belcher performing in a leotard that is very low cut and would work just as well in a strip club as well as in a contemporary dance piece, performing incredibly sensual movements including caressing her body and getting into slow languorous splits....but there's no pole, it's all floorwork, and she's a top ballerina and it's piano music and it's not a deliberately disturbing piece she choreographed herself to challenge the historic objectification and subjugation of Black people so presumably nobody is clutching their pearls.