Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

I don't feel like a beleaguered minority as such. I just see what non sexual classes are doing differently.
I don't see them as normalising the sex industry. I see them as offering a fun way ti keep fit.
As long as people keep sayimg 'but it normalises the sex industry' all the time then there's even less opportunity to promote the discipline in ita own right because the more people say 'but sex industry' the chance of actually being able to discuss the very many non sexual sides decreases (and so no progress gets mafe at all).

Bertrand asked

'Please will someone post a link to a video of a woman doing a completely unsexualised pole routine?

And I have spent more time than I care to remember in an aerial studio.'

Please look at Crystal Belcher and her Nina Simone Strange Fruit routine. 2013 US Nationals. I am sure you will be moved, as well as impressed.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=9jN4DyicBWs

Bertrand asked

'Please will someone post a link to a video of a woman doing a completely unsexualised pole routine?

And I have spent more time than I care to remember in an aerial studio.'

Please look at Crystal Belcher and her Nina Simone Strange Fruit routine. 2013 US Nationals. I am sure you will be moved, as well as impressed.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=9jN4DyicBWs

Muffster I am seriously impressed by Belcher's athleticism. However 'woman writhing in flesh-coloured bra and shorts' is in itself inescapably sexualised, IMO. However far from the original intention that might be. I wish that wasn't true and am aware that the problem lies with men creating such associations via the sex trade. I know that many of you disagree but it's a gut reaction for me.

Personally, I feel uncomfortable when the sexual gaze and sport overlap. I think it detracts from women's achievements. But pole is performance art IMO so perhaps that's not relevant here.

Her skill, power and strength is extraordinary. But I have to say, I find the juxtaposition of the pole, her costume and that particular song troubling.

And I am also troubled by the suggestion that those of us who have an issue with pole's antecedents should stop saying it because we are hindering it's acceptance into mainstream sport a bit strange too. It's as if you think we want that to happen and don't realise we're making it more difficult!

betrand
I'm well aware that you know what you are doing and fundamentally want to make it as difficult as possible for a perfectly reasonable fitness discipline to be accepted.

My point is that at that point you're unwilling to see any type of change at all, are happy for people to think 'pole=sex club' etc so it becomes almost pointless discussing the issue. Your objection is that it is associated with strip clubs but then you are against publicising nonsexual disicplines which move the pole discipline away from the sex club side.

Whereas a lot of pole people on here have said things like:
Yes there is pole in clubs
Yes there is a sexy side e.g. exotic pole
Pole is more than looking sexy
Pole is about fitness, strength and athelticicism not about titilating men
We wouldn't aee children doing sexy routinea but acro tricks are fine
It's up to women if they want to train in exotic pole
It would be nice if we could get to a point where pole is actually acknowledged as a reasonable discipline (regardless of whether it ends up in the olympics)

And so on.

People who fundamentally have decided 'pole is linked to sex clubs so it should never be accepted' seem to have zero interest in having the true face od pole fitness spoken about and shared (presumably because once people start making a sensible distinction betqeen exotic pole and other pole then opinions may start to change).

To stress, nobody is saying you shouldnt have an issue with uts history.

Just that going on about a sexual history when people are not talking about exotic pole isn't helpful.

There is a lot of 'but people will still associate it with...' yes they do. And they will do as long as there are people who spend loads of time talking about one small area at the expense of the whole sport. In other words pushing the associations that they say are problematic so you get a lovely chicken/egg situation e.g. 'people associate pole with stripping
Look everyonr pole is linked to stripping and sex work
But it's not all like that
Shh we don't want it normalising. People, you don't want your children mimicing strippers do you!
See we told you everyone thinks of stripping

So people only associate pole with sex work because people like me tell them to? Do you genuinely think that?

Incidentally, what do you think of the routine to Strange Fruit that Muffster linked to?

So people only associate pole with sex work because people like me tell them toDo you genuinely think that?
No. People make that link and i get that. I have said that on this thread.

But I do think people making a deliberate decision to focus on that side in spite of the growing movement of pole as a discipline separate to strip clubs purely because they don't want to see the non sexual side publicised is just spiteful if I'm honest.

Surely if the issue people have is with the sexual side then there's no reason to be so against publicising the non-sexual side. Unless the aim is 'i dislike the entire discipline so if we keep talking about the sexual side we can hinder any education about the non sexy side', which again seeks spiteful.
Incidentally, what do you think of the routine to Strange Fruit that Muffster linked to?
Loved the pole work. Very athletic and controlled.
Costume not to my taste, but then I feel thr same about illusion dance costumes or leotards.
I'm not a massive fan of the floor work linking between the static pole (1) and spinning pole (2). I find some contemporary dance (even off pole) to be a bit 'roll on the floor' for me, but it was a good piece to watch.

Spiteful? Opposing something that you consider damaging to women is spiteful?

What do you think is motivating the "spite"?

Having concerns abiut a discipline's history isn't spiteful. Raising concerns about the history isn't spiteful. Discussing the fact there is a sexual side and the issues there is not spiteful.

Wanting to activelyensure that a non-sexual side of a discipline doesn't get air time, isn't publicised etc because you have decided it is damaging to women is spiteful. Refuting accounts of pole fitness with 'by all means do it but it is still sexual' and going on about the sexual side to further reinforce that link and limit education about the different styles is just ridiculous. What part of doing some acrobatics in a non sexual setting is damaging?

That's my point. By all means have an issue with the sexy side of it ajd the history. But essentially saying 'i don't like it so will go on about the sexy side to deliberately hinder the non sexy side from being accepted' is spiteful.

It's not spiteful, it's a difference of opinion! People are allowed to disagree with you and to dislike your hobby.

And I do have to say that the Strange Fruit routine, which was offered as a moving, lyrical and entirely non sexual example did absolutely nothing to change my mind. How anyone could have thought that even remotely acceptable is beyond me!

AssassinatedBeauty
A difference of opinion is a difference of opinion.
I have zero issue if people disagree with me on pole. I held similar views to many of you until a few years ago.

Wanting to make it deliberately difficult for other views to be heard is spiteful.
Saying that people should keep talking about the sexy side to reinforce it and makr it harder for entirely reasonable non-sexy classes to be heard is spiteful.

It's easy to say 'i have no issue with individual women doing pole' but then openly say you don't want the fitness discipline publicised (not sure what moral crisis is going to happen if people realise pole can be sexy and not sexy. Are people so stupid that they'll see a distinction and then suddenly everyone will be corrupyrd and there'll be strio clubs every 5 buildings?).
Flip side really could be 'I don't like any type of pole including pole fitness but they can and should be heard and given space to outline the different styles. I can choose not to go to a class if it bothers me and I can choose to rally against the sexy stuff'.

If it were to become an Olympic sport you would soon have tiny prepubescent looking Chinese women excelling at it and I expect interest might wane somewhat...

'i don't like it so will go on about the sexy side to deliberately hinder the non sexy side from being accepted' is spiteful.

That makes no sense to me

If someone truly thinks its an awful/harmful thing due to its links with the sex industry and some of the still existing sexy stuff then thats their opinion, their repeated assertions aren't spiteful, they are opinion

(I dont think its an awful thing and virtually no one here has denied that some of it can be incredibly athletic, i have seen some people do that thing where they hold on with one leg and then drop to the floor and just before their head crashes to the ground they stop....incredible)

Gosh im slow at typing

You know what betrand, what is the point in discussing it when you have zero intetest in even considering the simple fact that pole can be sexy and not sexy.

If all you want to do is say 'it's wrong and awful and damaging' on repeat and want to rubbish any clip given (which you are going ti do on the basic of it has a pole in in!) then any discussion is futile.

Obviously people becoming aware that pole can be sexy and not sexy is such a threatening view that it is going to ruin everyone.

nat
That already happens in gymnastics.

The birth certificates of some chinese gymnasts have been falsified.

rufus
Then the solution is to say You know what. Yes there are different disciplines of pole. They should be able to share their classes. They should be able to promote their sport and then I can counter that with my objections.

Not, what people on this thread have said which is that is shouldn't be publicised.

Anyone who sits in a discussion with a belief that the opposing view shouldn't be publicised or should be made difficult to be heard is spiteful in my opinion.

I feel the same when universities decide that certain speakers should be stopped from speaking on the ground of 'safe space'. If someone has a legal view or a legal hobby then let it be heard and promoted and then challenged. Don't try to limit or hinder it under the guise of 'but jy opinion is...'

She is spot on.

I have a problem with cheerleading too. But I’m trying to ignore it

The problem is that all the examples that have been linked to-apart from the men!- seem to me to have sexual elements. And sport doesn't. Why not try to make pole a legitimate dance form rather than a sport? There is room for loads of sexiness and sensuality in dance. I'd still object of course- but it just seems much more logical and a much easier case to argue.

No thats not the case if people feel very strongly maisy

It never has been the case

And what are people on this thread doing about stopping it?

Nothing

Some just disagree completely