Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

A great deal of it is relevant, as well as being very interesting. Unfortunately I now have to take my child to an art camp so I will not be able to write about it for 45 minutes or so - I will be delighted to share the story when I return!

WhatWouldGenghisDo
I'd like to think we can get there. It will take but that's to be expected.

It's one of the reasons I get frustrated with outrage over junior classes because it too often becomes 'it's children mimicking the sex industry' rather than 'it's children doing acrobatic tricks in an aerial studio on a piece of apparatus that is still associated with strip clubs'.

Or people look at a routine and say 'there is a pole and she wears crop top and shorts Should we just ignore that it's pole dancing and pole dancing is sexual' rather than 'that's quite a cool routine some of yhose moves wouldn't be out of place in a more sexy environment but it's quite clearly not a sexy routine'.

I will never deny the links between pole and sexual performance (some women love that style and more power to them. It's not my thing) but more needs to be done to highlight how most pole classes aren't in that style.

The story of pole today begins a over century ago in the travelling beer and circus fairs of 1900s America. Following the success of the the 1893 Chicago World Fair, traveling carnivals featuring rides, freak shows, 'Wild West' horse riding, dancing and acrobatics and feats of strength became popular across the USA for four decades

The burlesque 'hootchy cootchy girls' dancing in the big tents serving alcohol would not only perform the 'exotic' routines on the bill (shimmy-shake dancing loosely based on West African dance and Turkish belly dance) but they also began to incorporate dancing round and climbing on the bar and the tall tent poles. In this they were instructed by the Mallakhamb trained Indian gymnasts and Chinese pole acrobats who also travelled with the fair.

Circus people doing circus things and jamming together in other words.

In the 1960s go-go bars with dancing girls dancing on stages or cages became popular and by the end of the 70s some clubs in the USA and Canada introduced poles. A sub culture amongst dancers competing to be featured artists and make lucrative stage appearances at different clubs led to an explosion of artistry, creativity and skill. Top dancers drew big crowds and began to be featured in music videos on the new MTV and similar stations of the 80s.
Dancers such as Canadian Fawnia Mondey began to get many requests to reach pole skills, not just by fellow club dancers but by women (and some men) interested in performing arts/aerial apparatus). She started teaching in her own studio and released an instructional video in the mid 90s. So did American Pantera Blacksmith and Jamilla De Vere (all these women were self-employed exotic dancers turned entrepreneurs). By the beginning of the 21st century there were many instructional videos and pole classes were being set up all over the world. YouTube launched in 2005 and other social media platforms made it easier for dancers to show off and share tricks and techniques.

All this interest in and collaborative growth in pole tricks and techniques sharing and creation was happening parallel to performing pole in clubs. The creators and originators of the tricks we still use as our foundations today were strippers who took their skills out of the clubs and developed them and passed them on to others who wanted to learn. Dancing for men was the night job and teaching pole skills the day passion that for many became their full time job and they left the club hustle behind.

To not celebrate these women who pushed and pulled pole artistry out of the clubs and to denigrate just how much courage and skill and passion it took to develop the skills - not to mention the sweat and the bruises - that is the shameful thing.

I am not ashamed of pole's origins. It was powered by dancers for themselves and each other and shared with passion and for love after the men who paid to stare had gone home.

People who think it is purely to titullate miss the point. It is not 'problematical' to me to be open about our origins. It is a source of pride.

There are not even half the number of registered participants required for it to be considered for the olympics.

That is a fact.

It has been added to a list along with table football, dodgeball and arm wrestling this year.

That is also a fact.

The muggle thing is patronising. People having a different opinion to you about the public appropriateness of an activity around children are not ‘shocked.’ They just have a different opinion to you.

‘I will never deny the links between pole and sexual performance (some women love that style and more power to them. It's not my thing) but more needs to be done to highlight how most pole classes aren't in that style.‘

Why? It’s just a hobby. There’s no actual need for people to know more about it, any more than the general public needs to know more about real ale types or the rules of the cresta run. It isn’t some kind of pressing social issue like environmental protection or mental health services for girls.

"Why? It’s just a hobby. There’s no actual need for people to know more about it,"
Typical muggle thinking.

The muggle thing is an in-joke, a wink to any polers or aerialists reading. I'm sorry you feel patronized.

I am back on to cover something that kept coming up earlier in the thread: why do some circus acts wear more clothing than pole dancers in pole fitness videos or classes?

Answer: they are performing different tricks on different poles which are made of different stuff.

They are either using silicone covered poles which are so grippy that they tear skin so clothing is worn, or they are on Chinese acrobatic poles, coated with rubber They are much thicker and the way you move on them is different. Some of them are using swinging poles or chain or ropes.

The poles used in pole sport competitions and pole fitness/dance classes are usually 45mm chrome (they can also be 40 or 50mm and made of stainless steel, or brass or chrome plated with another finish, or powder coated - like the poles on a metal climbing frame).

Both the pole and the dancer must be warmed up to grip and pole tricks rely on push/pull/balance between (usually 3) contact points such as back of the tricep/armpit, hip crease and below the rib cage, or knee pit, back of the arm and back of the neck. The pole dancer moves between poses in a flow on a static or spinning pole.

I think the reason pole people wanted pole put forward for Olympic inclusion consideration were a desire to be open and proud about their hobby (or job, if a pro teacher and performer) instead of constantly having others describe it as 'problematical' (from a feminist POV and often accompanied by sneers such as 'how empowerfulising') or 'titillating/seedy/slutty' from a patriarchal POV).

Unfortunately in the rush to explain the fitness aspect the origins and stripes foremothers of pole were denied (or even shamed by pole fitness people).

This is sad to me, as a feminist and as a poler.

As I've said I don't really care whether pole makes it into the Olympics and I'd rather not have it all sanitized and controlled and performed by 17 year old elite gymnasts. I like it as it is now: I think most reasonable people understand it's been out of the clubs and taught in studios for many years now and is popular with all ages as a performance art or fitness activity. It's origins are not problematical and nor are people doing it letting the feminist side down or being handmaidens of the patriarchy. Time marches on.

‘The muggle thing is an in-joke, a wink to any polers or aerialists reading.’

Well, yes, obviously! It’s patronising to make in jokes about people who you’re talking to! That is kind of manners 101.

it's been out of the clubs ... for many years now

A quick google search will demonstrate that it's still very much in the clubs.

We'll know when it's been successfully reclaimed (I.e., has begun to signify female empowerment, strength and freedom rather than male power & female sexual submission & availability) because the kind of men who like to go to strip clubs will go off it.

I appreciate you don't think it's problematic as you choose to do it and think it should be popularised further. You can't seriously be suggesting that people who disagree with you about that should just shut up because you find it annoying that some people view it that way? And speaking for myself, I haven't sneered about it at all.

You say it's been "out of the clubs" for a while, but the thing is that it continues there and in many other contexts as a shorthand for erotic performance for the benefit of men. That hasn't gone away.

No one has said that you are letting the feminist side down, or that you are handmaids of the patriarchy. In fact most people have said that they have no problem with women choosing to do pole dancing for fitness or whatever, as a personal choice.

"Time marches on" presumably means that you think people who disagree with you are just old-fashioned and bigoted, and that their opinions are irrelevant as a result?

WhatWouldGhengisDo I and others have already explained that the growth in pole fit classes and competitions has been occurring separately to the continuation of clubs having poles. One is by women for themselves and each other/pole peers and the other is by dancers for paying customers. The kind of men who go to strip clubs would likely not enjoy watching a pole fitness class or pole completion because they are NOT THE SAME experience at all as going to a strip club. If you want stripping go to a strip club, where the pole dancers are dancing to get you interested in paying for a private lap dance. Do not go to a pole dance class or completion where the other people there will be mostly women, cheering each other on.

Just to add to the mix, I've just been chatting to my dd-who is pretty pissed off that trapeze and pole dancing are being talked of together.............

Oh, and I would be surprised if sprinters or weight lifters or gymnasts refer to people who don't take part in those sports as "muggles"......

Never mind the sneers of the original Coren article, here's some reaction from this thread:

It’s a sexualised performance. And it’s problematical in the extreme

It really is empowerfulization at it's most blatant

It's pole dancing. It is specifically designed as a turn on, that is literally its raison d'etre.

The faux naivety is annoying. We all know what pole dancing is and what it is for.

I can "arrogantly" decide what's best for me and other women though. And that is her not supporting an industry where many women are abused and exploited and which perpetuates a societal view of women as sex objects.

Let me put it to you this way- I don't recall circus performers I have seen on poles, ropes, high trapezes wearing the sort of skimpy costumes the performers in pole dancing competitions wear.

I think it would be interesting to examine why some professional women are choosing to take up pole-dancing as a hobby over other hobbies that don't have a background of male titillation. Telling your male friends that you've taken up country dancing or karate or marathon running won't get the same reaction.

Funny how disagreement and sneering have become synonymous.

Mufster agreed - and I also agree that lots of women visibly doing it in a non-sexual way might eventually succeed in genuinely reclaiming it.

But until that happens, I feel very strongly that children should be kept out of it. For me, protecting little girls from the potential consequences of being viewed (by some men) as enjoying a behaviour those men think of as sexual is the most important priority here.

Sorry! Muffster

Can't you see the sneers in the above quotes?

It's tiresome, I've been poling and teaching and dancing for over ten years now. I've seen polers try over and over and over to explain, to demonstrate, to share what they do, I've seen the efforts to make it palatable to outsiders and to get tricks standardized and points and levels allocated and have professional international and national competitions...and still it goes on.

'Problematical...empowrfulisation...titiillation...' and that's before we get the 'slutty...shameful..attention seeking...degrading'. And the unsolicited dick picks.

And so I guess we get abut defensive at times, and wish people would learn more and judge less.

I agree about protecting kids. I play with my six year old son on my pole. I will send him to Aerial Class (silk hoop and pole) when he is older but I don't want kids performing in adult pole competitions until I am sure we have managed to educate more outsiders. I can handle the abuse but kids shouldn't have to

Back later, I have pole training to do!

I don't need to learn- I understand completely what you're saying. I just don't agree with you. I don't think that women "normalising" something so firmly associated with the sex industry is a good thing. i feel the same about burlesque.

I agree about protecting kids. I play with my six year old son on my pole. I will send him to Aerial Class (silk hoop and pole) when he is older but I don't want kids performing in adult pole competitions until I am sure we have managed to educate more outsiders. I can handle the abuse but kids shouldn't have to
I agree with you.
I would happily let my child attend classes but would hang fire on competitions and performances in pole til trhy are older purely because of the attitudes like the ones on this thread.

If that's the case then betrand that's fine and your opinion, but it also means no amount of pointing out the realiry of classes is going yo have any effect and so the stigma continues.

I don't doubt for a second what happens in your classes. But the link is still too strong. And it is impossible to deny that you are "normalising" something that is strongly linked with the sex industry. Which just can't be a good thing while we are still living in a society that sexualises women. I realise you feel like a beleaguered minority-hence the muggle comment-and I'm sorry about that.