Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

Nobody is denying the extraordinary levels of strength and fitness and athleticism of the performers in those routines. They are amazing. And it must be brilliant to be able to do it. But the same applies to the sexy routines too. And the fact remains that if pole dancing had been completely reclaimed from the sex industry and just become a mainstream fitness routine then there would be children's classes popping up everywhere. And there aren't.

Did you bother watching any of the videos ? Or do you just know it is all silly without having to?

No, I didn't watch the videos. I've been alive and often sentient over the past few years during which there has been a concerted effort to normalise pole dancing so I've seen clips of women doing it regularly. I know you're taking about athletic wear rather than thongs and going easy on the body glitter. Fine.

What I don't see is why feminists would be interested in finding it an excellent thing that parts of the sex industry are becoming mainstream in this way. I wouldn't consider it absolute goals for feminism. Hopefully I've used my new phrase correctly.

But there are children's pole classes I thought we had established that. They just contain NO elements of sexy pole.

Good lord, are there? I thought we had established that there were children's aerial classes. These in my experience do not include pole.

SummatFishyEre
The ones near me are aerial classes and the kids learn tricks on a range of aerial apparatus, including pole.

I know one studio is considering a pure junior pole fitness class if there is demand with their 11-18 dancers (who are already so damn flexible that i've seen photos of them smashing moves it's taken us adults months to learn)

It's very simple.
Pole CAN be sexy.
It can also be NOT sexy.
It depends on what you are doing.
Unless you are in a strip club or watching an exotic pole video the intent is not to be sexy for please men.
If men find contemporary, lyrical or acro pole attractive then it's no different in my eyes to them finding a woman attractive twerking and street dancing or finding a woman in a leotard attractive for gymnastics. We don't go around wanting to monitor and police dance or gymnastics in case some poor man gets a hard on.

I've never met a woman doing pole who has started 'because DH would like it'

Good lord, are there? I thought we had established that there were children'saerialclasses. These in my experience do not include pole.

Remind me what experience you have?

My dd did trapeze for 6 years. Is that enough experience for you or do I have to have done it myself?

'And currently the pole international community if women and men polers is huge...'

It isn't actually huge enough to qualify as an olympic sport though, according to the links in the article you called 'feebly researched.'

Unless you have some further research showing it does meet the olympic requirements in terms of numbers and organisation?

'We don't go around wanting to monitor and police dance or gymnastics in case some poor man gets a hard on.'

Some man getting a hard on isn't a reason to police anything.

But if something is heavily associated with the sex industry (the purpose of which is overwhelmingly to provide what men find sexually gratifying) then that association cannot be ignored.

While individual women are able to pursue sex industry related activities, that doesn't mean they can impose their interpretation on what that means on everyone else. A woman wanting to pole dance, in an exotic way or otherwise? Up to her. An organisation wanting to introduce pole dancing into school sport or dance teaching as if it were any other sport or dance activity? Not okay, because very many people consider it to be highly linked to the sex industry.

@SylviaPoe www.polesports.org here is the international polo sport website. They are well on the way to meeting the criteria. However the international community of people who are interested in and perform pole dance and aerial arts is far far bigger than just the group of people who are interested in pole being an Olympic thing . And many of us do not really care about pole fitness being an Okympic thing - do not want pole to be just 'pole fitness' and meet Olympic criteria of gymnastic athletic points levels and become a sport because to us it is not just about athleticism and competing it is more than that. We do not want to deny or denounce our roots and airbrush our or apologise for the strippers and circus artists and dancers who created and taught our original tricks. We want to keep the creativity and safe accepting space which we currently have for all to pole and share - women and men, all genders and sexual identities, able bodied and disabled, young and old. Pole is a place for feel free which includes free to be sexual and wild as well as athletic. You probably won't get it but to spin and hang upsidedown by one ankle and hand then drop into splits and body slam the floor whilst a room of your peers scream for you - or to put on fierce music and freestyle at home by yourself for yourself and lose yourself in flow - feels sacred and magical. The sanitized de/dexualised Olympic world is the antithesis of this joy we share

SylviaPoe
I don't think we should ignore that side of it.

I just think a bit of balance and common sense should be applied before giving undue weight to that side when lots of people are explaining the fitness side is not about sexual titilation.

I disagree with your classification of it beinh a sex work related activity. It isn't. It can be but I don't find the repeated 'but pile and strip clubs' that helpful other than to try and shock by placing it next to children. Whatever someone's personal view of pole, no sane instructor would give a child a sexual routine. The existence of a pole doesn't make it sexual. I think what people are trying to say is that we want the non sexual side to be embraced ajd considered without the stigma of the more exotic side (which i agree with you, if a woman wishes to do exotic pole which is more sexual then that is entirely her choice. It's not for me though).

Although we disagree, you at least consider that there is a side of pole that is not at all to do with sex.

Sounds fair enough to me Muffster. Let sport be sport and let pole be pole

But let's also acknowledge that despite the pole-related erudition, distinctions and nuances on this thread a proportion of the population will associate watching pole dancing simply and solely with being sexually aroused and this is not an association we want extending to 8 year olds.

TBH I'm waiting for the muggle world to get over itself and catch up and catch on. One thing the whole media coverage of the pole as Olympic sport issue has done has educated some more people that pole fitness and pole dancing is now a mainstream thing and does not take place solely in strip clubs. That it has its own international competitions and grading and has many different genres including tricking, contemporary, exotic etc etc. That it is an aerial art like other aerial arts such as lyra (suspended metal hoop), trapeze, silks l, straps etc requiring similar levels of strength and skill. That polers wear skimpy clothes because skin grip is needed to stay on (unless using a silicone covered pole). And so on.

It does get boring however to have the usual shitstorm of sneering and shaming about the stripper origins and accusations that it's still only done to titillate men.

The coverage has been pretty extensive and pole classes have been going on in most towns for over a decade now so if people still want to be assholes about it then I can't be bothered to explain yet again.

Would anyone be interested in a quick recap of the history of pole today and the 1920s travelling fairs?

"Muggle world"... pole dancing isn't a magic club that only those genetically blessed enough to be able to do it belong. It's an exercise/dance/activity. With a problematic history and continuing use, imo of course.

Muggle world is how we refer to it. Because to us it feels magic to be able to fly. There's nothing 'genetically blessed' about it and that is the whole point. You can be old. You can be disabled. You can identify as any gender or sexuality. You can be pregnant. You can be any body shape or size. You can pole with your kids. You are always welcomed and celebrated. It's the antithesis of the judging sneering shaming non-pole world which is why we call it a magic one.

No, you're trying to make it an exclusive club that those who don't understand it, in your opinion, are excluded from and not allowed to express any opinion on. It's the total opposite of welcoming.

But let's also acknowledge that despite the pole-related erudition, distinctions and nuances on this thread a proportion of the population will associate watching pole dancing simply and solely with being sexually aroused and this is not an association we want extending to 8 year olds.
I have no doubt a proportion of the population will only consider it in that light and would be shocked at children doing it.

I guess I kind of hoped that through sensible discussion and time we may get to a point where people more widely acknowledge the difference between sexy and non-sexy disciplines. Not that we will get there any time soon if the loudest voices are 'there's a sexual element some of it, by all means do it as a woman but don't for the love of god mention acro tricks versions of it to children'.

If you are regularly sexually aroused in a particular context then that context alone will eventually become sexually arousing. Men go to strip clubs, watch pole dancing and become sexually aroused. (NAMALT obviously). Therefore there is a proportion of the population for whom the sight of an 8 year old on a pole will trigger sexual feelings. This will remain problematic for as long as pole dancing happens in strip clubs.

I dont otherwise disagree at all with the comments made about the benefits of pole and the distinctions in styles, and I'm not in the least sneery about what adult women do to keep fit or to enjoy their sensuality

I hear what you say about the association.

I disagree that it is a problem as long as it happrns in strip clubs though.

For me the problem is the need to educate people that yes a sexy side of it exists, however the default setting or view of a discipline should not be sexy.
I'd like to get to a point where people think pole as a discipline first and then the different types second rather than how it currently is which is 'pole = sexy strip clubs & some people happen to do a fitness version'. That will only come with time though and people openly discussing it.

Do we welcome and celebrate anyone who wants to learn to fly?
Yes.
Do we welcome and celebrate hearing yet again from non-poling people who have little to say but 'it's purely/merely a sex industry thing' and bash us and try to shame us whilst willfully ignoring all arguments and evidence to the contrary?
No.
There's been huge efforts for more than ten years to explain what we do. And still, and still...

Why do you think anyone is shaming you? What has anyone said that does that?

People understand what pole dancing involves, physically, and that many people don't do erotic/sexualised pole dancing and do it for fitness/exercise/fun. You want to shut down any discussion about the problematic associations and continuing use of pole dancing in strip clubs and similar. You aren't interested in discussing that at all.

The origins of pole and the strip found - It's not problematic to me. I'm happy to discuss its origins. I actually just asked if anyone wanted a history?

What part of the history do you think is relevant?

Fair play Maisy, in theory that could work! Learning theory would suggest subjecting young men to extensive totally unsexy pole displays as an inoculation before they ever made it to their first strip club

Apologies if this has been bought up elsewhere - I've had a quick read of the the thread. Has anyone mentioned Mallakhamb- it has been suggested that it was the root of pole dancing. In India it is very much a male sport - and they don't wear a lot for grip purposes.