Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

It's like a different language.

She is awesome maisy and that video is exactly what people have been asking for..amazing skill, unbelievable strength and a beautiful dancer without a hint of sexiness in the performance (unless they think her iron x is sexy because it's a crotch shot) in a leotard and her hair up in a bun.

Assassinated Beauty and MrsDusty do you have to be so patronising? And what do you think men with poles might mean?

I take it you didn't bother watching any of the videos.

Well it's hard to take this very seriously as a discussion that belongs in this topic.

Did you bother watching any of the videos ? Or do you just know it is all silly without having to?

I'd love to hear how anyone thinks the videos I posted were sexualised.

"And what do you think men with poles might mean?" I don't know what this question means?

I was not really trying to be patronising, it was an clumsy attempt at being frivolous.

Maisy referred to "men doing pole" you and MrsDusty apparently don't understand what she meant.

Your "yoof speak" comment was extremely patronising.

No, @MrsDustyBusty didn't know what "absolute goals" meant, in a post about a woman dancer. It was that specific turn of phrase that was being discussed, nothing else.

Well it's hard to take this very seriously as a discussion that belongs in this topic.

You really don't have to read posts you don't understand, you know

Not 'yoof speak' as it was so patronisingly put.
Fairly common to talk about absolute goals and smashing goals in a number of fitness areas in my region. People post cross fit, hill reps updates with it too.

To be honest, I've shared a range of videos showing different styles and there's very little to be gained by trying to present the same (fairly dull) facts multiple times.

• pole can be sexy
• it doesn't have to be
• there are many genres
• it is a fitness discipline with a skill level comparable to other more performance sports like dance, gymnastics and figure skating
• if people wish to debate whether it should be an olympic discipline on the basis of the sporting element then it's an interesting discussion
• if people wish to reinforce their own prejudices against a fitness discipline they've never tried and ignore the experiences of people who do then it's not an interesting discussion

I'm going to pole class tomorrow. I'll be wearing my nike proa and crop top and ensure that I look fashionably sexual when I'm doing my core training.

No, @MrsDustyBusty didn't know what "absolute goals" meant, in a post about a woman dancer. It was that specific turn of phrase that was being discussed, nothing else

Ok. your comment was still patronising.

So what does absolute goals mean?

(What I said...)

"- if people wish to reinforce their own prejudices against a fitness discipline they've never tried and ignore the experiences of people who do then it's not an interesting discussion"

If I went out this week and did a pole-dancing beginners class, would I be allowed an opinion on it? If not, how many classes or what standard would I need to be to be qualified to discuss it?

Try it once and see how much skill, courage, strength, determination and dedication it takes to do it. That's a properly informed opinion. Go to one class

I absolutely agree that it takes skill, courage, strength, determination and dedication. I can see that without needing to try for myself. That's not the issue that I have with pole dancing.

AssassinatedBeauty
No classes required to actually consider people who do the classes might actually know something about it.

Have whatever views you like without attending. People don't have to attend to have personal view about the rights/wrongs if it. I'm just inclined to ignore it when people continue to tell me that classes are always sexualised and repeatedly ignore multiple people with experience saying the same very simple idea multiple times:

1. It can be sexy
2. It can be not sexy

At that point it's not 'here is my thoughts on the morality of it' and becomes 'i think my personal view is more important than simple facts'.

Until people have actually tried it (and seen that points 1 and 2 are true) then I see zero reason to consider it a useful discussion anymore because it becomes all about reinforcing prejudices about a sport and ignoring the experiences of those who do it.

It isn’t going to become an Olympic sport because it doesn’t have anywhere near enough registered participants.

All it actually has is observer status - the same as dodgeball and table football.

So we must defer to your opinions because you're an experienced pole dancer, and we cannot have an opinion unless we've tried it. Ok.

I absolutely agree that it takes skill, courage, strength, determination and dedication. I can see that without needing to try for myself. That's not the issue that I have with pole dancing
You can have an issue with the history of it, the fact there is a branch of exotic pole which is all about titilation etc.
What you can't do, which is what some people have done on this thread, is turn to people saying 'it CAN be sexual but equally here's how it's not' and essentially say you are wrong because my personal view is... so in a nutshell you might have experience that says otherwise but it doesn't change the fact that it's horrendous and oppressive and all about sexualising women

It is of course up to individual women if they want to break down the stigma of pole dancing by participating in it, but I don’t think women and girls as a group should have to engage with that process.

AssassinatedBeauty
Have an opinion all you like.

Just don't mistake having an opinion as having the same weight as the factual experience of people who do it.

E.g. 1 - helpful abd informative discussion
Person A - I have a number of reservations about pole because...
Person B - I see what you mean. It can be like that and that's still there in.... but what's nice is that it isn't always because...
Person A - That's good. How does thay work? What's the difference?
Person B - Explains
Person A - I see. I still don't think it should be a sport in the olympics and the sexy elemenr doesn't sit well with me but it's good that it's a fun fitness discipline

Eg 2 - not helpful
Person A - pole is awful abd all about oppressing women because it's all about sex
Person b - well, yes and no. It can be sexy and there's that side but actually it's not all like that
Person A - but it is
Person B - actually no, yes sexy pole exists but here's rhe bigger picture
Person A - but it's all about sex and appealing to men
Persoj B - exotic pole is but it's much broader than that for example...
Person A - but it's still sexual
Person B - except it's not because in the classes I know...
Person A - but it's still sexual
Person B - have you tried it? Because people who have are saying it can be sexual but it's more than that
Person A - oh so i have to have gone ti a class ti comment abd have an opinion
Person B - no. Anyone can have an opinion, but people who have experienced it who are saying what it's like.probably know a bit more
Person A - i guess we ahould all never have an opinion then
Person B - realises discussion is futile

Pole dancing is a sexual experience for the observer. That is the point of it in a public sexual setting.

It isn’t about what the person performing the dance feels.

Right well what I had said is more like your first scenario than your second one.

As long as pole dancing is used extensively in strip clubs then the association exists between a sexualised performance for the male gaze and the activity itself. That is a major negative for me, and as such it isn't an activity that I would do myself or choose to promote for other girls/women. I have zero negative opinions about anyone who chooses to do it as a fitness activity. I also don't think it's a sport nor should it be (or is likely to be) in the Olympics. Could you clarify which part of that is opinion that I'm not allowed to hold?

Late to thread, am popping on to say I found the Coren piece sneering and feebly- researched - but I don't think pole should be in the Olympics. I say that as a pole dancer/athlete (and feminist). It's an art form. Not a sport. And currently the pole international community if women and men polers is huge, diverse, accepting, progressive and contains multitudes of styles and disciplines celebrating variously strength, flow, sensuality, athleticism and I do not want what we do to be sanitised and codified and gymnastic- ized and ebdvup being cheerlessly executed by teenage gymnasts. I get that fitness polers want the muggle world to recognize the skills and strength and athleticism needed but fuck it.