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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

A bloke I know posted this on facebook...

44 replies

pigsknickers · 15/10/2017 15:13

Actually I'm going to have to paraphrase because I can't copy & paste for some reason. Basically that he admires the brave women coming forward to accuse Harvey Weinstein, but is disappointed that "so called feminists" are trying to suggest this is a wider societal problem, because by doing so they are alienating all the great men like him who don't go around raping and abusing women. Needless to say I gave it to him with both barrels, and I felt the power of all the brilliant articulate posters on here behind me as I was doing so. I just wanted to thank you all for helping me to find the confidence and conviction to get into a public debate in this way, as I'm not sure it's something I would have done a year ago. I don't often post here, partly because I don't often have the time to properly commit to a discussion, but also because I often find someone has already articulated my thoughts better than I have. But I do lurk a lot and I wanted to say how brilliant you lot are, and how much strength this forum gives me.

OP posts:

NoLoveofMine · 15/10/2017 15:53

Thank you for challenging him. It's not easy to challenge people you know when they come out with comments like he did so it's great you did and hopefully will make him, or if not then others reading, consider the issue and realise it is widespread. It will have been heartening for others to read your comments as well. If only he'd spend time challenging misogyny and sexist comments from other men rather than berating feminists who are fighting this culture which enables perpetrators to commit attacks.

NoLoveofMine · 15/10/2017 15:54

I also second the comment about how brilliant posters on here are, so many incredible women from whom I also learn so much.

SmartiesHaveTheAnswer · 15/10/2017 16:34

OP good for you.
I also second what you said re the other posters. I'm receiving such an education at the moment.

Please could you give me the gist of what you said? I'm learning and still at the stage where I'm unable to confidently articulate what thoughts are bouncing around my head.

DJBaggySmalls · 15/10/2017 17:56

Well done for standing up to him. You probably wont change his mind, but other people will read your response and not feel so isolated or silenced.
Men like him arent so great if they are that easy to alienate.

Original poster

pigsknickers · 15/10/2017 18:13

Myself and a few other women described our own experiences of harassment and abuse by men, and pointed out that these experiences are shared by most of the women we know. I said that if he's denying that misogyny is a huge problem in society, rather than calling it out, then he's actually part of the problem (that really didn't go down well at all). I tried to draw an analogy with race, and a white person denying the existence of structural racism because it made them uncomfortable. No actual engagement with anything I or anyone else said, only that I'm discriminatory and too aggressive and it's people like me who put good men off feminism. Oh, and also that he is a feminist, and I need to educate myself about feminism because it's not about women, it's about gender equality. I'm afraid I got pretty sarcastic at that point. Not entirely sure what I've achieved, he now has me down as a rabid manhater but at least I know what sort of man he is now. And it felt good!

OP posts:

QuentinSummers · 15/10/2017 18:18

Haha haha. Well done! Sounds like he is an out and put misogynist if he's coming out with the bullshit about being too aggressive/putting people off. That's a standard tactic of non-feminists when they can't actually argue with the points you are making.
Good for you! [Wine]

QuentinSummers · 15/10/2017 18:19

I don't know what's going on with my emoticons atm [beer]

AnyFucker · 15/10/2017 18:20

Good for you

Datun · 15/10/2017 18:33

Well done. Women have had enough. Harvey Wankstain (sorry, too good to pass up), has been a catalyst for people everywhere to name the bloody problem.

You can tell him gender equality would mean that you would like loads of men to be subjected to what those women were, to suffer FGM, honour killings, be killed before they're born (117 million), to constitute 50% of sexual predators, rather than 2%. That you would recommend that all men, yes all men, get catcalled, pinched, groped, propositioned, and coerced into sex. That's equality.

Tackling those inequalities is called feminism.

Original poster

pigsknickers · 15/10/2017 18:34

Thanks no-love. You are one of the posters I particularly had in mind

OP posts:

Datun · 15/10/2017 18:38

No, I never tire of saying it. Men who claim I thought you wanted equality, give fucks about and have zero clue about what constitutes the current inequality.

Original poster

pigsknickers · 15/10/2017 18:41

I did more or less make that point Datun, I definitely got that from here! He didn't respond directly but that was when he said I was being discriminatory (I think the word disgusting was used as well). I find it hard to imagine anything I said actually gave him pause for thought, he seemed so very pleased with himself and thought he was being dead clever with his hashtaggenderequality bullshit. And possibly I did go in a little hard, but fuck it. Not going to waste any more energy being nicey nice to misogynists - another excellent lesson I've learnt here

OP posts:

NoLoveofMine · 15/10/2017 18:47

Thank you very much for saying so pigsknickers (excellent username by the way ) - that's hugely flattering! I learn so much from the fantastic women here. It's excellent that you challenged this as it can definitely be difficult with people you know but it's great you did and even if he hasn't taken it on board, others will have, others will be grateful you spoke up and doing so also gave the other women who commented a chance to talk of some of their experiences of harassment.

Great posts Datun.

Datun · 15/10/2017 18:52

Good for you. Misogynists need to be left in the cold. Let them console themselves with their warped view the world.

It's incredibly informative being on these boards. Especially when a misogynist shows up.

So many women, highly informed, with answers to everything. And answers that absolutely bear the most forensic scrutiny.

I have read accounts from a lot of people, women and men, who say the logic of feminism (not the fun kind) is just too rational and demonstrable to refute. Anyone who prides themself on critical thinking comes round to it in the end. (Given the chance).

Someone who has no access to feminism, will be on the defensive. Because it does take time to get informed. And once the goggles are off, they're off forever.

Original poster

pigsknickers · 15/10/2017 18:56

It's a bit scary that he genuinely thinks he's one of the good guys, because he's never abused a woman. The bar is so, so low.

OP posts:

Datun · 15/10/2017 18:57

The bar is so, so low.

Fucking amen to that.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/10/2017 19:08

Agree completely with nolove

cuirderussie · 15/10/2017 19:13

Well done pigsknickers. It's amazing how quick the NAMALT whining started isn't it? I had to tear apart a couple of such little shits myself in the past week!

Bucketsandspoons · 15/10/2017 19:45

Well done OP!

I am not comfortable calling myself a feminist anymore, it's been co opted on an 'if you can't beat them take it over and wreck it from the inside' basis to mean a whole lot of things that are actually about putting women in their place.

New word needed.

Original poster

pigsknickers · 15/10/2017 20:17

Buckets it's a real problem isn't it. Feminism has bent over backwards to distance itself from the angry bra-burning stereotype that most people who haven't actually engaged with second-wavers, think it's this sort of vague, catch-all movement for equality, and many feminists seem scared of centering women lest the men feel left out. I picked up a leaflet for the WOW Bradford festival the other day and it fucking pissed me off so much - on a double page of 4 events, one was about something like feminism, men and gender equality, and another was on trans identities with the delightful Shon Faye. So only 50% actually about women, at a festival that's supposed to be about, er, women. But at least the men will feel all nice about it.

OP posts:

Original poster

pigsknickers · 15/10/2017 20:28

Good for you cuir. There certainly are plenty of opportunities for misogyny bingo at the moment.

OP posts:

bambambini · 16/10/2017 14:33

Is his name Owen Jones?

Sounds like you did just fine.

Gingernaut · 16/10/2017 14:36

The likes of Weinstein get away with it because it is a wider societal problem.

This misogyny has become so ingrained that victim blaming has become second nature and whistleblowers' careers are ruined.

There are more Weinsteins out there...

CliffRichardsPenIs · 16/10/2017 14:37

Rousing round of applause from me, OP

CliffRichardsPenIs · 16/10/2017 14:42

Buckets I completely agree. Can we propose "Womanism"?

Women are centred. Not men, not masculinity, not trans.

Women

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