Horizon programme on transgender

[Pemba]

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096k5dm

BBC Two tonight (Tuesday) 9 pm. I wonder what take they'll have on it?

The brain scans showed that transsexuals had brains different to men and to women.

There's a third type of brain. That is not proof of a man wanting to be a woman or a woman a man.

Another thing about those studies - there are male and female homosexuals, male and female heterosexuals and male and female bisexuals.

Transgender people were not compared to people belonging to any of these types.

I would like to see the results of patients who identify as transgender compared to gay, straight and bisexual people of their starting sex and their destination sex before anyone starts hailing the study results as proof of their argument.

Right now, the numbers involved in any of these studies are tiny, the representation limited and the conclusions of the studies on rocky ground.

StrangeAdventure I would really appreciate it if you could stop crossing out every other paragraph in your posts. It makes reading very difficult. If you don't want to own what you are writing then don't write it.

Also I'd be interested to see a study that shows that suicidal thoughts are reduced/resolved by GRS surgery. I thought that Johns Hopkins had found that there was no difference in outcomes after 10 years but maybe that study is a bit out of date?

There aren't two types of brain or three types of brain. Brains can't be reliably sorted into male and female. There are features found more frequently in men and features found more frequently in women but massive cross overs between the two populations. Just as there are characteristics more commonly expressed by women and characteristics more commonly expressed by men but no one way to be either.

People and their brains are diverse, shaped by genetics, experience and other factors. It's ridiculously simplistic to think that scanning someone's brain will tell you how they think about anything, including their gender identity (if they feel they have one). If brain scans can be used as some sort of detector of dysphoria then it might well evidence that sex and gender dysphorias have more in common with developmental disorders like autism or other dysphorias like anorexia. Of course that wouldn't fit with the peculiar logic of transactivists who seem to think that it is highly offensive to even consider that their might be something wrong with their minds even while they ask for massive resources to be committed to change their apparently completely healthy selves.

strange I quoted you, you said
"Pre-surgery suicide rates vary enormously depending on which part of the population you look at, but the most widely-accepted figures are that about 40% for untreated TS". That says about 40% of pretransition trans people kill themselves. That fact is repeated everywhere, I hear it nearly every time there is a discussion about transgender. But it's not true and I think it's scaremongering/increases risk to trans people to insist it is.

People with trans children often say they were told "better a live daughter than a dead son" in reference to suicide rates. Can you imagine being told that? It's emotional blackmail and also could give the child the idea that suicide/attempts is how to pressure your parents.

It just annoys me, and is another example where if you try to get to the facts you get branded a transphobe.

Where does that statistic come from?

Assassinated
I --and I'm sure most other people - share your concerns regarding kids. Where we seem to differ is that I think that if a parent is worried about their child, they are quite right to see their GP about it. If the GP refers them to specialists for assessment and diagnosis, I think the parent is doing the right thing to accept. If the specialists then advise a particular course of action, I think it makes sense for the parents and child to consider following that advice.
I don't think it is right for anyone to pressure the parents and child into rejecting that advice.
And I think it is very, very wrong for religious or political pressure groups to try to compel their child to undergo a snake-oil treatment that all the professional bodies regard as counterproductive, dangerous, and unethical.
I can see why people would not want a diagnosis of transsexualism, but not going to the assessment will not make the condition go away!

Where. Does. The. 40% suicide. Statistic. Come. From?

Gingernaut
The numbers involved in TS studies are often small because it is a rare condition. But the studies have been done, and are on-going.. There was a even a thread on mumsnet not long ago in which several people boasted of their efforts to disrupt a statistical survey into TS life experiences by bombarding it with fake responses!
But the results of biomedical research are clear enough for expert clinicians to use them as the basis for diagnosis and advice. Yes, practices are changing, as the scientific basis becomes more secure. But they are relatively minor changes aimed at improving outcomes, not on people quoting flawed forty year old data in an effort to deny treatment.

Sorry, can't do any more. Got to get on with my day.
I'm not "flouncing" as someone so kindly out it in a previous discussion: I've just got more important things to do with my life than point people towards information that they don't want to believe. It's there. Google it for yourselves. But please don't pick the dross from anti-trans pressure groups: look for the quality information from professional bodies, universities, and governments.

It's the first steps where parents seem to be medicalising normal behaviour. Why is there this seemingly large rise in very young children being presented as trans by their parents? As in 3,4,5 year olds. They're socially transitioning at 5/6/7 and then growing up being told they can easily change their bodies and become the opposite sex. How can these children easily turn around and say that actually they're ok as they are?

Look at the case of Helen Webberley and the willingness to diagnose over the Internet and prescribe drugs rapidly. That's not what you've described. The woman who runs Mermaids took her son aged 16 abroad to have surgery, again nothing like the process you describe.

StrangeAdventure
Why, in your view, are there so many girls who want to transition compared to boys? If they are really trans, why are there not hordes of newly transitioning trans men of all ages who would have transitioned when younger if this ideology had been around when they were children?

There was a even a thread on mumsnet not long ago in which several people boasted of their efforts to disrupt a statistical survey into TS life experiences by bombarding it with fake responses!

That survey was aimed at LGBT people in order to gather views about the gender identity bill.

Do you not see the irony in getting angry about people self identifying as LGBT in order to complete a survey about a self identification bill? Either self identification is a good idea or it isn't but you can't pick and choose who can self identify and when they can.

I saw this show. I thought the parents were wonderful in being supportive and living and accepting.

But I wanted the medical professionals to scream out " so she didn't like dresses and prefers short hair? Neither does half the population they just wear what they like it doesn't mean they are trans"

The jumping for joy over medication and hardly touching what it actually means and having teenagers decide therefore future 're children....

And the voice surgery it didn't work did it Sarah sounded no more like a woman after than they did before.

I'm not clued up about this stuff at all the posters above are far more articulate and deeper thinking of the issues than I could ever be bit the overall impression I got was just that they had all been lied to. And I'm scared for the future of the children who can't be who they are without labels. Can they please just call.puberty blockers what they actually are please. The brutality of it all seemed so watered down.

assassinated that's why I mentioned the possible influence of cartoons earlier, and also thinking of the wider media that is maybe influencing how children perceive themselves. Parents, going by what the children say and wanting to do the right thing may take them to the doctor. Doctor then refers. So then what is the criteria for diagnosis the children? How is the child's behaviour as a trans different from a child who isn't?

A child will do what it is told by the parent and the parent will do what's advised by the doctor, and behaviours shown by the child. So it's circular? Is that correct? Is that how it works? Genuine questions

People with gender dysphoria probably do have different brain structures to those who don't have it. That wouldn't surprise me considering that people with anorexia also have different brain structures to those without it and incidentally, there is also a lot of overlap between the brains of people with anorexia and those with gender dysphoria. It's not unusual for people with gender dysphoria to have other mental health disorders such as anorexia. I for one have/had both.

I think it's hard to gather accurate suicide stats tbh. As has already been mentioned, people with gender dysphoria often have co-morbid mental health disorders such as eating disorders, depression and anxiety, all of which AFAIK have high risk of suicide and suicide attempts. So I think it's hard to say whether the high suicide attempts are a direct result of gender dysphoria itself, one of the other disorders or a combination of both.

Attempting suicide is not always an attempt to take one's life either. I know when I attempted suicide several times in my teens it wasn't always because I wanted to die, it was more because I felt the need to escape and escape from the body I was in and that seemed like a quick way of getting away from it at the time.

IAmEatingACurry That's how I feel. If you have self-identificaton then who's to say what being Trans is. On that ideology anyone who performs in anyway outside their gender (is not stereotypical) are Trans.
On one hand we have the True Trans tell us they are women because they say they are, but Crossdressers are not. That True Trans is surgery and hormones but other Trans are not authentic.
I don't think feminists are policing Trans politics as much as Trans police themselves and vigorously.
There is almost a script they follow, CDing at a young age, history of depression and suicide, which is not to be deviated from. India Willoughby is a good example of this. This Trans woman also doesn't want men in dresses in the Ladies, but she is allowed in as she is True Trans.
The Trans movement is full of twists and turns, leading to contradiction.
You are Trans if you say so unless a more worthy True Trans comes along to say you are not.

IAmEatingACurry
Posted before I saw your follow up post. Wanted to say I have great sympathy for anyone who suffers from any mental health issues. Do what you need to do to keep safe and happy and don't take to heart what any random person says on a forum. Peace

IAmEatingACurry thank you for posting it is always good to hear from people who have actually experienced things.

People with autism are more likely to also have gender dysphoria (than general population)

www.mercatornet.com/conjugality/view/the-increasingly-convincing-link-between-autism-and-gender-dysphoric-kids/19232

I watched some bits of it again today. There are 25 days left to watch iplayer.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b096k5dm/horizon-2017-being-transgender

I think I may write to the BBC as I feel it is so one-sided.

morningrunner I know how you feel. I was most upset by Luke. She looked like a normal little girl who was a exploring an alternative personality as 'Luke' and may now be on hormone blockers and on a life to medically transition. If she loses her female reproductive organs she won't be able to have a birth child and that surgery, if completed, will be irreversible.

This seemed a million miles from Vinnessa who was 25. Said she had wanted the surgery since she was 14 or 15. Personally, I could completely understand that life would be easier and better for Vinnessa to live as a woman.

I think it is easy for those of us who are very nervous about how young potentially gender dysphoric children are being treated (and worried about any male identifying as a woman to get into women only spaces) being labelled as transphobic - and it is simply not true.

I would wish Vinnessa all the very best if this is for her (even in spite of all the talk of pink, barbies and abandoning tonka trucks in her segment). But she is an adult and is making a choice. Totally different to young children.

Plus was there any mention for Jamie (19, not 18 as I may have said earlier, but still a teen) of the dangers of testosterone? I don't remember it being mentioned in the programme.

I think many of us who post on here are parents, and I can well imagine any loving parents will try and be supportive, in as much as they can get their heads around things.

On this thread we mentioned fertility earlier. As I say, I watched some bits of it again. I think it was tragic hearing the two teenage girls talking about whether they will ever want biological children, and that they will have to make that decision now.

Autistic people are more likely to suffer from identity difficulties, MH problems, anorexia etc, and social functioning, fitting in with their peers. Autistic girls and women are often not diagnosed, or misdiagnosed. Autistic young people are often emotionally immature. Add to that social contagion, and all the other pressures on young people and you have the perfect storm.

StrangeAdventure

Shame the only link anyone has provided was to a US-based forum that is primarily for cross-dressers (= cis-men who dress up as women) rather than UK transsexuals.

You seem to be a bit out of touch on this. All the definitions of trans I have read in recent years include cross dressers as well as a huge range of other GNC people. Here's Stonewall's definition:

Trans – an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) Transgender, Transsexual, Gender-queer (GQ), Gender-fluid, Non-binary, Gender-variant, Crossdresser, Genderless, Agender, Nongender, Third gender, Two-spirit, Bi-gender, Transman, Transwoman,Trans masculine, Trans feminine and Neutrois.
--------
Last year, the Women and Equalities Select Committee (nine women, two men, no trans) published the results of its inquiry. It took evidence from lots of people, including police officers, academics, civil servants, medics, lawyers, trade unionists, and women's rights activists.

Anyone could have contributed written evidence, and many did so -- on both sides of the fence.

Are you seriously transplaining Miller's report to MNers? That is priceless! You're right, many contributed written evidence from all sorts of viewpoints.

This evidence from the British Psychological Society was ignored:

psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons:

- As a means of demonstrating reduced risk and so gaining parole;
- As a means of explaining their sex offending aside from sexual gratification (e.g. wanting to ‘examine’ young females);
- Or as a means of separating their sex offending self (male) from their future self (female).
- In rare cases it has been thought that the person is seeking better access to females and young children through presenting in an apparently female way.

Such strategies in no way affect risk an indeed may increase it. Some people falsely believe that taking oestrogen and blocking androgen in males will reduce risk of offending, however this is not necessarily the case.

Consequently the Society recommends that the Government give appropriate assistance to transgender people within the criminal justice system; while being extremely cautious of setting law and policy such that some of the most dangerous people in society have greater latitude to offend.

This evidence from the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists was ignored:

The converse is the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this.

Evidence from women's groups was wholesale dismissed as '“extraordinary” hostility from a minority of women “purporting to be feminists”.' And Miller still has no answers to the difficult questions raised by those groups. It's all just 'very difficult' but never mind, it's Justine Greening's problem now.

You know who was listened to? Who was asked to give verbal evidence and who is referenced heavily in that report? The wonderfully sane and non-violent Action for Trans Health.

I suggest you go and read the many threads on here where posters have analysed the contents of that report and what its recommendations would mean in practice. Then go on Site Stuff and read the many requests for Miller or Greening to come on for a webchat because many of us think they have questions to answer.

pencils

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

several people boasted of their efforts to disrupt a statistical survey into TS life experiences by bombarding it with fake responses!
Actually I think you will find many of us were completely entitled to complete the survey, being lesbian, bisexual or even agender. Agender (no gender identity) falls under the LGBT+ and trans umbrella, as tge link from stonewall shows.
Our responses weren't fake, how dare you. Can't think of anyone on that thread who identified as a cisgender straight woman and therefore not entitled to complete the survey.