Horizon programme on transgender

[Pemba]

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096k5dm

BBC Two tonight (Tuesday) 9 pm. I wonder what take they'll have on it?

This article is interesting.

www.marieclaire.com/health-fitness/news/a15344/transgender-egg-freezing/

In as much as it contains the words, ""The desire to raise a family has nothing to do with one's gender identity, or transgender status," Stark notes, "and is a right that should be afforded to all people." If anything, it's just wonderfully mature of an 18-year-old to be so sure of his hopes for the future."

I just wonder how the future generations will think they can 'afford' fertility to all people. As a recipient of donor eggs (sadly unsuccessful) and mum to a birth and adopted child, I think having children is wonderful, and I totally understand people's desire to parent.

I think this may be the area where the desire to see beyond biology (if one could put it that way) could cause some friction.

Re fertility, they did have the bit where the two young trans men talked about how they had to think about whether they wanted children and how difficult a decision that was to make at 18. I'd have liked more time to be given to that, but they then cut to the trans woman saying she'd frozen sperm. No discussion then of how that might come into play later on.

I just tried to watch. Had to stop - it was just infuriating. Charlotte's male colleague asked whether they'd be female once the transition was complete, and Charlotte said 'yes'

The research in Amsterdam was clearly flawed because they made no mention of controlling for socialisation or brain plasticity.

Albadross yes I thought brain plasticity!

.

I watched this last night and found it very insubstantial on the science element for a programme on the Horizon strand. If it was just a documentary about the experiences of transgender people then it might not have been so bad. However, I think it was poor for Horizon to present this as if the science was cut and dried. I knew it would be poor when it immediately started talking about gender assigned at birth rather than sex being noted at birth with no definitions of sex and gender.

The sperm banking was presented as if that was an easy solution to infertility. Also no discussion of the other biological consequences of taking cross sex hormones. Lots of talk about playing with the wrong toys when lots of young children play with a wide variety of toys - my 3 yr old plays as much with her Brio trains as she does with her dolls and she doesn't yet have any concept of girls/ boys toys.

And I'm another one who is quite good at those rotating shape puzzles!

Interesting to see how the TG/CD men see this programme. It boils down to them being upset that the stereotypes of Trans Men and Women have been enforced (ironically not seeing they love the playing up to stereotypes). Anyway, always interested to read another perspective
CD discussion

That link doesn't seem to work Mikey .

Oops try again
www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?252873-So-who-s-getting-it-wrong

Just watched this and found it very informative. I look forward to the 'revisit' programme in 5 years, 10 years. The family sitting round the table with their Trans son swigging a beer and their back to front baseball cap and their lovely, sweet parents being so supportive and accommodating because it was the only way they could keep their child ALIVE (they had previously self-harmed at 14 and overdosed a couple of times). And the young American child who was told by their Mum that they could take something to stop them having periods - I would have bitten my Mum's hand off! The op was interesting 'we're now going to dig out the vaginal tunnel'. Interesting to hear first hand the thoughts and reasoning of the adult participants but still so uncomfortable hearing the children speak.

Has anyone statistically qualified ever interrogated the death records to find the thousands of deaths in decades prior to the trans revolution that are reasonably attributable to gender identity issues?

It would be interesting to know whether the new trans agenda IS preventing any suicides and if so, how many.

SerfTerf

The only study I know was from John Hopkins University. They pioneered gender reassignment. But then stopped.

They said that although it helps with gender dysphoria, it did not make any difference to happiness levels or rates of suicide. In fact suicide spikes 10 years after surgery.

They maintained it was pointless doing an invasive and expensive surgery when it made little difference to people's peace of mind.

However, I think they have started it again. I haven't kept up with it, but I imagine they have caved in to the ideology.

I'm not sure how you can say it's pointless on the one hand, and then keep doing it on the other, though.

That's interesting. Thank you. I'll see if I can find more detail on that.

(Worrying if a centre of excellence like that have capitulated to a wave of ideology and ignored their own evidence-based conclusions.)

Suicide statistics relating to teenagers, so not post op transsexuals. But it is fairly shocking how headline grabbing may have created a self fulfilling prophecy.. and is influencing a school inclusion policy near you....

www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-report-4thwavenow.com/2017/09/08/suicide-or-transition-the-only-options-for-gender-dysphoric-kids/what-does-suicide-rate-mean/

www.transgendertrend.com/a-scientist-reviews-transgender-suicide-stats/

4thwavenow.com/2017/09/08/suicide-or-transition-the-only-options-for-gender-dysphoric-kids/

Wow! I looked in on this thread quite late, expecting it to be the usual succession of anti-trans rants. But it wasn't!

Shame the only link anyone has provided was to a US-based forum that is primarily for cross-dressers (= cis-men who dress up as women) rather than UK transsexuals. Amongst TS, the overall feeling seems to be that the documentary was better than most, but that it rather sugar-coated the issues: it showed people sailing effortlessly from one high point in their transition process to the next , with plenty of support from loving family and friends. It did not accurately reflect the years spent hanging around on waiting lists or going through the "Real Life Test".

From some of the comments here, there seems to be an assumption that the few seconds that dealt with the science of transsexuality covered all there was to be known, rather than being a tiny snapshot of a growing mass of solid science investigating the structure and functioning of transgendered brains compared with cisgendered brains. If you read the papers (google them -- I've been bitten before for posting links on Mumsnet) you'll see that issues such as plasticity and the effect of cross-sex HRT are discussed.

As for the "does it work" question, the answers are that about 90% are happy with the surgical outcome, with many of the other 10% going back for subsequent surgery to put things right (we're not talking "designer vaginas" here this is things like not being able to pee). A small proportion something like 2% regret having surgery.

Pre-surgery suicide rates vary enormously depending on which part of the population you look at, but the most widely-accepted figures are that about 40% for untreated TS, falling to about 4% post op. Suicide rates amongst post-op TS are certainly higher than in the general population, but this is most likely due to social factors -- difficulty getting a job or housing, alienation from family and former friends, or violence and abuse in general.

In terms of cost-benefit analysis, Gender Realignment Surgery is regarded as one of the most effective treatments available on the NHS. It costs about the same as a hip replacement, but it saves lives and lasts a lifetime.

There is a dispassionate discussion of the clinical and scientific evidence published by the NHS here:
www.engage.england.nhs.uk/consultation/specialised-services-consultation/user_uploads/gendr-ident-policy.pdf

Here's the "Plain Language Summary" from the NHS document that I linked to in my previous post
www.engage.england.nhs.uk/consultation/specialised-services-consultation/user_uploads/gendr-ident-policy.pdf:

Gender dysphoria refers to discomfort or distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity (how they see themselves with respect to gender) and that person’s sex assigned at birth (and the associated gender role, and/or primary and secondary sex characteristic).
This encompasses both binary gender (male or female) and non-
binary gender (pan-gender, poly-gender, a-gender, and others).
It is not a lifestyle choice and can best be described as a neuro-developmental disorder.
It is a debilitating condition that has a profound effect on almost every aspect of the sufferer’s life, leading in many cases to high levels of contact with primary care and mental health services, and disengagement with the wider society and from ordinary activities of life such as employment, education and meaningful activity. Suicide rates for sufferers are significantly higher than the national average.
Many people who experience gender dysphoria desire to live and be accepted as a person of the gender congruent with their gender identity, usually with congruent physical sex characteristics. Some people will make a social role transition only; others will require physical transition, through hormonal, physical and surgical interventions.
Gender Identity Services offer a pathway of care, treatment and support through psychological, social and physical transition, co- ordinating interventions provided directly by the service with interventions offered by other providers.
Efficacy of this care pathway is high, with several studies reporting extremely high levels of transgender patient satisfaction with surgical reconstruction and subsequently a significantly higher quality of life. Once discharged from specialised services, most patients go on to lead full and productive lives under the care of their GP.

a growing mass of solid science investigating the structure and functioning of transgendered brains compared with cisgendered brains.

Are there such things as transgendered brains and cisgendered brains then? Can you divide up human brains into such categories? I thought current thinking was there are no such things as male and female brains and there was too much crossover between the two to make a distinction so how would you make this cis/trans distinction?

The brain thing is ridiculous.
Even if males and females brains are different, ones body and brain aren't seperate entities.
The whole thing is based on outdated stereotypes imported from the US.
If Kim and her ridiculous clan weren't around telling girls that is the feminine ideal I am sure teen girls might be happier.
And don't get me started on Disney.

If there was, wouldn't all children who present as trans get these brain scans and are identified as definitively trans before being put on a pathway to puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery? Does that happen?

strange

I'm not going to pick apart
all your post. Because I don't intend to keep posting counterclaims. It's tiring.

However, there has only been one teen suicide in this country that could possibly be to do with trans. 2000 under age people attended the Tavistock last year alone.

Pavements would be littered with suicides, if the 40% statistic was accurate. The statistic was taken from a total of 27 people. A ridiculously useless sample (all of whom were alive).

If you can point me towards a UK list of transgender suicides, that would be great.

Meanwhile Wikipedia has a list of transgender deaths. Last time I looked, there weren't any in the UK.

There is certainly no scientific consensus that you can have a person with the brain of a woman in the body of a man.

Brain structure forms a mosaic across the sexes. In fact there is more difference between men of different ages than there are between men and women. Plasticity.

But the most important thing is what on earth difference does it make?

Transwomen commit crime at exactly the same rate as any other man. They make up a significant portion of convicted sex offenders.

Transactivists have demonstrated over and over how dangerous they are.

I don't want people like that in my bathroom. Or locker room. Or prison. Or rape refuge.

I certainly don't want men with gender dysphoria to be discriminated against on that basis.

I completely accept gender expression as a means to alleviate symptoms.

But certain areas of life are segregated by sex, not gender. And a sex category isn't what you feel in your head.

I've considered writing to Radio 4's More or Less asking them to look into suicide rates for transgender teens. I doubt they would touch it with a bargepole though.

qumwat ive written to them along similar lines and think the more people that do the better. We need to keep asking these questions.

ktown gah yes Disney and cartoons. I see a number if threads here about cartoons and the lack of female representation and since having my son and started watching them I completely agree. Or there is one female there but many in pink and/or doing "girly" things. Of COURSE girls these days want to identify out of that limiting role in life and say they are boys. Why wouldn't they?

OK. Morningrunner and Datun have waded in, so this thread is disappearing down the plughole of transphobia again. So -- as before, there is not much point me staying in it.

Last time we got involved in this "discussion", I didn't want to be accused of "cherrypicking" evidence so I just pointed to the Google Academic links page. But it seems that morningrunner doesn't like those links, so here are the top half dozen sites if you type "transgender brain" into the ordinary google search bar (the Harvard one is particularly good: it's in plain english, but with links to accessible academic papers) :

www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/

www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

www.thedailybeast.com/what-science-can-tell-us-about-trans-peoples-brainsand-what-it-cannot

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality

sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

academic.oup.com/jcem/article/85/5/2034/2660626/Male-to-Female-Transsexuals-Have-Female-Neuron

I'm happy to discuss the issues, but I am not prepared to waste time with someone(anyone) who chooses to simply ignore evidence that doesn't suit them. Last year, the Women and Equalities Select Committee (nine women, two men, no trans) published the results of its inquiry. It took evidence from lots of people, including police officers, academics, civil servants, medics, lawyers, trade unionists, and women's rights activists.

Anyone could have contributed written evidence, and many did so -- on both sides of the fence. And anyone can read it, here, in full: publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39002.htm

But I'll put the summary in another post. I think it speaks for itself.

I can't speak for the transssexual community, but I am sure they would welcome a programme like More or Less looking into issues like the suicide statistics. The data are there in academic papers, but unfortunately they are mostly hidden behind very high paywalls. The idea that there has only been one trans suicide in the UK in 2017 is just plain wrong -- and even if it was correct, isn't that still one too many? (unless, of course, you subscribe to the view that the only good transsexual is a dead transsexual.)