Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux

[BeyondNoone]

Here's the link to thread one
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3033126-London-meeting-to-discuss-Gender-Identity-attacked-by-transactivists

I'm just going to sleep, if someone else can add the news links for me please? Thanks :)

Also, what "rights" would self-identification give genuinely trans people that they currently can't get through following the current GRA procedures? I'm genuinely puzzled by this.

You're not the only one tbh. I don't get it either.

I have seen people, both here and elsewhere, say that this will be an amazing step forward for trans rights but I still haven't got a clue how. I have asked (and seen other people asking) how it will be a step forward and what rights it will bring us that we currently don't have but always fail to get an answer.

One of my main concerns is that if it does go ahead then all mental health support for people struggling with gender dysphoria will be taken away completely. I'm imagining a vulnerable young teenager who is clearly struggling being told to just start IDing as the opposite sex and that will magically make it all better when it is really not that simple.

Also, what "rights" would self-identification give genuinely trans people that they currently can't get through following the current GRA procedures

I'm beginning to think that there is really only one thing that TRAs actually want, and that is to be a woman, not a transwoman, but an actual woman whenever they feel like it.

A GRC sets them apart from women.
Biology sets them apart from women.
Gender neutral facilities set them apart from women.

This is why they don't want any of these things.

And I can only assume they want this because they believe they are better women than women are, after all we don't consistently perform femininity for example. And they resent the fact that sometimes women exclude men, have things men don't, do things men don't do.

Well yes beyond. That's why we all need to believe "trans women ARE women". If you believe that (or say you do) then logically it would be unfair to treat them differently.
If you say you don't believe that you are a TERF and on the wrong side of history.

I don't believe "trans women ARE women" btw. I believe they are trans women and should be afforded legal protections and the right not to be discriminated against, harassed or bullied

Sorry, can't do links, but there is an essay online by AN Wilson, The New Dark Age of Intolerance, which talks about inter alia the incident at Speakers' Corner. (It is in the Daily Mail).

A thread has been started about it Cocker.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3047546-Daily-Mail-article-on-intolerance-mentions-speakers-corner-incident

I've a feeling Daily Mail readers might object, having finally been told what this law means.

Thanks

I'm sure JAPAB has well thought out reasons why that was OK too.

Whether or not an action is "OK" or justified is a different matter than what the reasons for it were.

Assertions have been made that the TRAs just hate women. Some of them no doubt do, just as members of any group might (or hate men).

I just question whether it is just a coincidence that generally speaking the people who get the vitriol happen to be "anti-trans" (or so it is perceived). No, they were just attacked for being women by people who hate women.

Also, what "rights" would self-identification give genuinely trans people that they currently can't get through following the current GRA procedures? I'm genuinely puzzled by this.

Maybe it is a bit like chest-feeding in public places. The law made it clear that this has to be allowed whereas previously there was nothing to formally say that you had to allow it in your restaurant (etc). The bill probably makes it easier to gain recognition, and may formally clarify what has or has not to be allowed, whereas previously it might have been ambiguous or nothing to formally say that trans men had to be recognised in this context, trans women as women in that context?

Oh honestly JAPAB. You don't think it's coincidence that an older woman got smacked in the face for holding a dissenting view? I was reading Robert Webb's TERFy thread on Twitter. Did anyone threaten to punch him? Tell him to die in a fire? They did not.
The trans woman that allegedly punched Maria posted on the page for the event earlier that day that they wanted to "fuck some TERFs up". They clearly went to the event to start a fight. They clearly hate "TERFs"
Is it coincidental that the term TERF is only applied to women? Is it coincidental that the only criteria for being a TERF is an indication that you don't wholeheartedly believe that trans women are women (i.e. a view most women, indeed most people, hold)? I don't think so.
Whether or not the women are "anti trans" they don't deserve to be punched.

Chest feeding?

I have ovaries. I have a womb (bit dusty, but still there). I have breasts which produced milk.

When I fed my children, it was with my breasts. I am not changing what I call MY FEMALE BODY PARTS in order to suit a trans agenda.

Please, stop telling us what we have to call you. How we have to treat you. And start listening to what we ARE and who we ARE.

Still Spartacus.

Chest feeding makes me thing of some old trunk in the attic full of old biscuits.

Chest feeding

Chest feeding?! Fuck off.

JAPAB do you understand the concerns about self-ID?

We're not worried about transnem going about their business just trying to get by.

We're worried about opening the flood gates to preditory men, who will us this to get access to female spaces - that will be bad for AFAB women and trans women alike.

If you think predatory men won't do this, you're wrong. PLEASE listen to the lived experince of women who have been on the receiving end of unwanted advances and worse from those kind of men since we hit puberty or - sadly in all to many cases before.

Sometimes I read transmen complaining about how men treat them, that they can't walk down the world without harrassmenet, that they feel constantly at threat of violence just for who they are - and think to myself - don't you get it? This is how (many) men treat women! Welcome to our world.

From the age of 13 (when I grew boobs), men hassled me on the streets pretty much daily. Occasioanlly they tried to drag me into cars, followed me, tried to talk me into having sex for money. Thanfully I wasn't raped by a stranger, but plenty of women who have been.

We know what predatory men are like. If they can self-ID to get access to us - why wouldn't they?

And what's to stop men in prisons with nothing to lose self-IDing to get access to women's prisons? Why should incarcerated women have to be locked up with violent male criminals?

Is the inevitable sexual harrasement and worse of women really worth redifining a law that already expsts on BFing?

And what about women's sports? What's to stop a failed male athlete self-IDing as a woman to get a better shot at a career?

PLEASE can you answer some of these questions or at least acknowledge that it's not unreasomable for women (including transwomen!) to want protection from predatory men? And that self-ID makes us all less protected from them.

I think chestfeeding is a specific term for transmen who are BFing, not an attempt to redefine BFing as chestfeeding.

Transmen sometimes have most of their breasts removed, but a but of mammary gland still there.

So they're saying what they do is chestfeeding, not all BFing.

I think ... on slightly shaky ground here!

transnem = transwomen, stupid phone sorry!

I'm annoyed that my phone has garbled my message!

My post makes no sense! It's meant to be transwomen in every example.

"Chestfeeding"? Seriously, JAPAB, that's just trolling for the sake of it, and being deliberately offensive.

do you understand the concerns about self-ID?

Yes. But the question was what difference this bill makes over the current status quo.

that's just trolling for the sake of it, and being deliberately offensive.

Being inclusive is offensive? Maybe you find pregnant people offensive also, but unfortunately sometimes an inclusive, general term is needed when talking about a general activity for which there is no guarantee that only non-trans females are referring to.

Being inclusive is offensive? Maybe you find pregnant people offensive also, but unfortunately sometimes an inclusive, general term is needed when talking about a general activity for which there is no guarantee that only non-trans females are referring to

It's not being inclusive it is being ridiculous. Only females can breastfeed or be pregnant.

But, I don't get why I have to change the language used to define me, in order to include you.

I am a woman. A MTT is a transwoman. DH is a man. A FTT is a transman. Transmen were born with the sex, female. If they want to have a baby, none of my business. If they want to call their mammary glands their chest. No problem. But my breasts are breasts and I am not chest feeding. I am breast feeding.

Why do I have to change?

In a society where women are simultaneously sexually harrassed for having breasts, and on occasion ostracised for using them for their actual biological function of feeding babies, where we've had to fight tooth and nail for decent woman-centred maternity care, maternity rights in the work place - all because of our biology, then yes, an insistence that we re-name our biology, the root of our oppression, because a few social justice warriors demand it is offensive. Very offensive.

Inclusivity would be a footnote in maternity guidance for midwifes saying "where service users are transmen, they may well prefer you to use the terms 'pregnant person' and 'chest feeding'. Please be guided by what the service user wants."

A blanket insistence that all women get talked of as "pregnant persons" and referred to as "chest feeding" is colonisation, not inclusivity. It's like the sort of white person who says "I don't see colour" and ties themselves in knots trying to describe Dave in accounts as opposed to Dave in sales without referring to his colour, yet at the same time refuses to see the existence of instituionalised racism.

So yes, yes you are being deliberately offensive, because you have had all this explained to you at length on numerous other threads

Being inclusive is offensive?

To transmen or transwomen?

Either way, I'm not offended by the term breastfeeding.

Last time I checked, only women could get pregnant. The term pregnant person is ridiculous.

what "rights" would self-identification give genuinely trans people that they currently can't get through following the current GRA procedures? I'm genuinely puzzled by this

The main argument I've heard is that trans people don't want to be regulated by medico-legal institutions of the State. They feel they shouldn't have to have their identity "approved" by medical & legal processes.

The counter arguments are easy enough: that
a) it is in transsexuals' interests to have medical acknowledgement, because they may need very specific and specialised healthcare after transition (if they do the full operative etc transition, not the "female penis/male uterus" crap)

b) most women (and indeed men, but to a lesser extent) are very much regulated by the state already. Try "self-identifying" for an abortion. Try "self-identifying" medical contraception. Try not allowing the state, or the medico/legal institutions to have some say over the way you gestate, give birth, educate, and generally raise your children .... I could go on.

They are spoilt little manchilds.

Breast feeding is truthful. Chest feeding is news speak and delusional. So yes it's offensive to me and to women who have breasts and have fed their babies with them.

I'm sorry some poor woman thinks she is now a man because she had her breasts cut off but I won't be pandering to that delusion since it denies womanhood and therefore affects me. I also wouldn't tell Rachel Dolezal that yes, she is black, jut because she thought she was.

RD got shut down by everyone because race matters. This crap gets elevated to the status of inclusive language because women don't matter.

How you have the nerve to come on MN and talk to women about chest feeding I do not know.

Go onto The Voice online and tell black people how to talk about race. Honestly, they'll love it.