Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux

[BeyondNoone]

Here's the link to thread one
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3033126-London-meeting-to-discuss-Gender-Identity-attacked-by-transactivists

I'm just going to sleep, if someone else can add the news links for me please? Thanks :)

There really needs to be a separation of the different strands.

The questions I would like answered are:

Why are far more young girls presenting to gender clinics than boys? If, as the narrative goes, it's because it's becoming more acceptable for girls to talk about it, then why aren't there hordes of middle-aged women transitioning, like there are men?

Why is autism hugely over represented amongst trans-people. And similarly why are so many transwomen in tech?

Why are the profiles of so many transwomen anime? And hypersexualised teenage girls? Does changing online profiles and avatars so frequently allow for a more heightened sense of fluidity and identification with something you're not?

Why does pornography play such a huge role in gynephilic men who transition? And what are the implications of that for the women they want to access?

Why are so many children transitioning who come from Christian fundamentalist backgrounds, or backgrounds that have rigourously enforced gender roles?

Why is it so imperative to stop people talking about this?

Can someone explain what's going on with the gender recognition act to me please?

I understand that at the moment someone has to live for 2 years as the opposite sex, have extensive counselling and so on before they can have surgery/hormones and then officially be a transsexual - is that right? But this proposed change to the existing act will mean that anyone can just declare themselves a woman (or man) and that's that - no counselling or anything? Which party is championing this change - Tories or Labour, or both? When is it due to be voted on and changed?

I'm asking all this because I don't use social media, and am inclined to think that with my small circle of friends I would effect any change anyway by posting on there. But maybe I could write a letter to my MP to outline examples of where men have declared themselves female in order to gain access to vulnerable women.

... with my small circle of friends I wouldn't effect any change

Another question (ish):

Could the folk who analyse statistics on radio 4 had a look at the so often debunked Mermaids stats. (Zombie stats etc.)

And, what has been the impact of their (her) campaign, how much money has been raised? Where has it gone?

Gin, there is also a fee to pay to obtain your Gender Recognition Certificate at the end of it - which is one of the complaints of the TRAs that I do agree with. If it's a medical condition, there should not be a financial barrier in place.

It is put forward by Maria miller (con) but supported cross party. It was due to be debated before the election and has been put on hold for now.

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/19/let-trans-people-self-identify-gender-corbyn-urges-may

I keep on meaning to write to Tim Harford about this. Must get around to it at some point. Because it's such a sensitive subject I guess getting the pitch right is very important. He might bite if asked to look solely at the suicide stats because there are real numbers to play with and there's a clear public interest in attempting to clarify things.

GinSoakedBarroomQueen

You've got it, in terms of what you have to do now except you must also have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. And live for two years as the opposite sex, be over 18. Then you can apply for your certificate. After that you can change all your documentation.

As far as I'm aware they haven't published the exact wording yet, but they want to eliminate all three of those criteria.

Instead of gender identity being a protected characteristic, gender expression will be. So clothes.

And if you think they haven't thought it through, you'd be absolutely right.

Here is an explanation of the implications and concerns.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/sarahditum.com/2017/07/24/some-thoughts-on-reforms-to-the-gender-recognition-act/amp/

Oh, and both May and Corbyn support it.

The fee is £140.

I don't care if they scrap it. But they have to pay someone to do all the admin.

But maybe I could write a letter to my MP to outline examples of where men have declared themselves female in order to gain access to vulnerable women.

I'm not sure there's proof of this. There are growing concerns but these have not yet materialised into anything concrete. I realise there are now rapists in women's prisons but that itself doesn't show the cunning and intent.

Instead I asked my MP whether she would support Ian Huntley being able to use his new identity as Lian to be transferred to a women's prison. I hoped that making her think "how would this go down with my constituents?" might give her pause for thought but the outcome was a fobbing-off response (the same as just about everyone has received).

Yes gin there will no longer be a need to present as a member of the opposite sex or to live as one, merely to say in the moment you identify as one and it would be discriminatory (and increasingly physically dangerous) to suggest in any way that you may be uncomfortable with this.

There was a release yesterday that the law will change from 2018 to prevent gendered stereotyping in advertising, ie an advert may not show only women cleaning or cooking, or girls dressed in pink, in pink bedrooms, writing in pink diaries with pink fluffy pencils as in an ad shown in the release. This seems in direct contrast to the gender recognition act, it's a completely incoherent legislative narrative from all parties.

The reason I suspect is that T when it emerged was firmly harnessed to LGB. It shouldn't be there, T is not a sexuality issue (I have seen that argued in TA povs). However because gay conversion therapy has been debunked and is looked back on as a grim, dark age of discrimination and non acceptance it's been a very useful narrative for TAs to say anything but unmitigated doing whatever is wanted in the moment is conversion therapy aka Evil To LGB (T) people.

It's unimaginable that any responsible medical system could refuse an adult woman a hysterectomy because ethically she may re marry and change her mind on wanting more children - but permanently remove the breasts of a 14 year old or prescribe even younger children drugs that will permanently prevent them becoming parents. Poor little Jazz Jennings is a slow motion train wreck.

nauticant

I'm not sure how you could ever prove that someone was identifying as a woman in order to access women inmates.

Because there is no objective definition to trans. Zero.

It's entirely subjective and based on what the person says. That is both the cultural and the official identity.

There is no room for ascribing a motive. Because it's immaterial what their motive is. In terms of whether they are trans or not. If they say they are, they are.

Having a sexual fetish comes under Stonewall's own definition of trans.

If you can't question the motive, how can you challenge the decision to move them?

One of the online collections of crimes committed by people who say they are trans is on the website This Never Happens.

Transactivists started off by saying if they commit these crimes, they're not really trans. So another film was made showing crimes committed by people who had not only asserted for some time that they were trans, but many of them actually represented the community in terms of talks, advice, etc.

m.facebook.com/groups/1722756661380462/?ref=group_header&view=group#!/groups/1722756661380462/?ref=group_header&view=group

Last week's violence at speakers corner is mentioned 2-3 posts in.

Thank you everyone. Lots to think about there, especially on what to write in a letter to my MP. Thanks also for the links.

Datun: I was thinking purely in terms of what to put in a letter to an MP that would be persuasive. To my mind once points are being included that need an understanding of a dense (to most people) theoretical background, then the chances of persuading an MP are lower.

This isn't a comment on the intelligence of MPs, many are pretty bright.

That Sarah Ditum article would make a good basis for a letter to an MP.

nauticant

Yes, I agree. It's such a minefield and there is so much information it's difficult to know what will make someone sit up and take notice.

It's a fine line between looking like you're sensationalising something, and expressing genuine concern by using examples.

Right, fuck it, I need to rant. And the only other online space where I'm used to talking about feminism is not a good place to talk about feminism now, and can't talk on Twitter or FB because they're both linked to my job and... it doesn't feel safe to have this kind of discussion linked to my job.

So. This is shit and ridiculous and how the fuck have we ended up in a situation where it's now left-wingers who are calling feminists Nazis? WHAT?

I know trans people. I believe them when they talk about how they feel, I want them to be safe and happy and to live their lives in peace and fulfillment. I think gender is a hierarchical social construct that needs to be destroyed but in the meantime we all need to find our own way to live as best we can within its toxic confines, whether we're my radical feminist self or my acquaintance who has a vagina but deeply feels male or hey even Michelle Duggar, any of us. And so on.

But BUT women are oppressed because of our sex. We are. Not because of how we internally identify. And fucking hell we need to be able to talk about it and name it. And now it feels like we can't, in so many places, because that's not being 'inclusive', because that makes us bullies, because that's "genital essentialism". Because we can't talk about abortion and pregnancy discrimination as women's issues because that's excluding trans men, like THE WHOLE POINT of reproductive rights isn't because the patriarchy uses them to control us as women, like there's no wider power structures at play at all.

And now I have just read a discussion in a place I used to feel relatively safe discussing feminism, where everyone was joining in the kicking of "TERFs" for, seriously here, not thinking about gender. Radical feminists being accused of not thinking about gender! What is this madness?

I am happy to include trans people in our fight to overthrow the patriarchy! Join right in! But FFS if you're saying we can't name or discuss our oppression, then you're part of it.

Here is a thread started last year, I think. Trying to gather all the information together.

There is a post by Fairplay for women on the 14/07 at 0038, at the bottom of which is a link to some template letters.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2907672-the-gender-critical-manifesto

I suggest that if you email, you also write on the email that you're sending a hard copy in the post. In this day and age, actual pieces of paper are harder to ignore. And, on the letter, also say emailed on such and such a date, so they can access your emailed version to click on any links.

I was hoping to trigger a visceral "but surely that can't be right!" reaction in my MP rather than a "my, this looks dodgy but also very complicated" one.

Whatever she thought, I got a "mustn't make waves, mustn't be on the wrong side of history" response from her.

(also I would like to just send out a general apology to the women who told me there was a violent and oppressive form of trans activism that was dangerous to women. I didn't see beyond the peaceful, decent trans folk I know and I didn't believe you, but you were right.)

nauticant

Me too. I spent hours trying to remove all emotion, remain factual, calm. Making sure all my links worked and that they were from reputable sources.

Painstakingly revealing the irrationality and the contradictions. The threats of violence and the no platforming.

And even though I toned it down, to me, it still looked utterly scandalous and shocking.

It was right after transactivists had attacked the Vancouver's women's library and vandalised it. Claiming that any books written by women about women should be destroyed.

Even though the library were inclusive and held many books by trans people!

They daubed the word transphobia across the front of a rape refuge centre in paint.

I couldn't see how someone wouldn't be as shocked, outraged and worried as I was. But perhaps, they think these are just a few outliers.

As time goes on, and they realise how prevalent this is, I'm hoping they will re-read all these letters and get a grip on it.

Thanks Datun for that link.

If self identification becomes law, what do you think the country will be like in 10 years time? In terms of sport, hospitals, prisons, children transing etc?
Interested in as much detail as possible.

Lemon interesting, I was just thinking about this....

One of the things that worries me the most is gynaecology appointments - I was in an abusive relationship years ago and it damaged me, in the way that I don't like people touching me at all. Unfortunately I also have had many many reproductive organ issues such as tumours, polyps, endometriosis and dodgy cervical cells. My gynaecologists have always been male, and I have always had a female nurse as a chaperone, in 10 years time it might just be two men - only one says he's a woman so it's ok.