14 year old girl raped in broad daylight

[NoLoveofMine]

Not that any rape in any circumstance isn't horrendous but yet another horrific case, a 14 year old girl raped in a park in the middle of the day. That this kind of thing goes on and receives so little coverage is abhorrent. I'm so angry at the lives of women and girls being ruined like this, because these men choose to attack. I'm not articulating this too well but am just enraged.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/girl-14-raped-london-avery-hill-park-greenwich-teenager-a7949851.html

If I'm right, increasinglymiddleaged seems to be saying that because women are blamed for being the victims of sexual assault, if we don't ever mention the fact that women are the majority victims of sexual assault, then they won't be blamed. This is not an argument that really holds up to more than about a nanosecond of consideration.

I have to say it enrages me we can't talk about the specific and clear risk women and girls are of male sexual violence without it being derailed. Street harassment, sexual assault, rape and beyond, there is a particular risk of this for women and girls.

And it enrages me that women and girls are abused and raped and are at this risk. I really think you are enraged with the wrong people.

It's not about mentioning frog its about the assumption that victims are always female.

OK - I'll bite Increasingly
It doesn't help women at all if rape is seen as a general crime. It is minimising and ignoring all the power dynamics, hatred and misogyny inbuilt in the crime.
And I have NEVER heard a feminist suggest that we should be careful of assuming that women are predominantly the victims of rape - EVER!

Thank you enough a sensible response.

Cross-post. So I seem to have understood where you are coming from. But honestly? Women are blamed for sexual assault because of a centuries-old patriarchal system which sets women up as fundamentally either virgins or whores, and ultimately responsible for policing the desires of men via their appearance and conduct. Feminists not talking about sexual assault being primarily a crime committed against women will make precisely zero difference to this structural misogyny, and I am still baffled as to why you think it might.

I am still baffled as to why you think it might.

I guess it's about presenting men and women as equals in the modern day.

But I think you are probably right re the history

And it enrages me that women and girls are abused and raped and are at this risk. I really think you are enraged with the wrong people.

I'm not sure how you could deduce I'm not enraged that women and girls suffer these horrendous attacks or that I'm enraged with "the wrong people".

And mentioning/assuming - it's all the same thing, it's about naming the problem. If we don't name it, we can't fight it.

I'm cross at myself though - you are pulling the rest of us into doing your thinking for you. Asking provocative questions is fine if you have a relatively thought-through position to back it up with. Otherwise it is just meaningless derailing, and it's not really leading to productive discussion. It's a bit like asking whether the ending of free school milk has anything to do with the rise of misbehaviour in schools, or whether the popularity of skydiving has anything to do with the increasing use of cars for the school run, and then berating people for being closed-minded when they look baffled.

Sorry if that is harsh, but it's taken a lot of posts by a lot of people to work out what you were even asking!

They aren't equals though. That's wishful thinking, not tackling gender inequality.

(that was to increasinglymiddleaged, not OP, obviously)

I'm cross at myself though - you are pulling the rest of us into doing your thinking for you.

Oh really, you are being ridiculous now. Surely that is the nature of a normal MN discussion? I said something, you disagree d and explained why.

Sorry if that is harsh, but it's taken a lot of posts by a lot of people to work out what you were even asking!

Well that was at least partly because I had to spend about 2 hours defending that I was actually trying to talk about the same thing as the thread.

But this isn't a discussion about an over-entitled neighbour. It's the feminism board and the topic was child rape. If you're going to make a provocative contribution in that kind of context, then you need to make sure it has some reasonably thought-out rationale. You had to spend 2 hours defending that you were trying to talk about the same thing as the thread because you were being spectacularly unclear. And because it is a frankly bizarre position to take.

I'm not convinced that we (generic we/ society) do even make the default assumptions Increasinglymiddleaged is saying.

I don't make a default assumption that male sexual assaults on children means on girls.

In the case of assaults on adults I am struggling to think of circumstances where the context would not be clear that assaults on women or men were being considered.

Increasingly, out of interest, why do you think focusing on male rape victims and female abusers would help women?

I've just read through the thread, and I'm sorry that it was so spectacularly derailed no love.

I imagine what Increasinglymiddleaged is trying to say is this. If rape victims were acknowledged more widely to be of either sex, the justification for the crime of 'she was asking for it' might be diluted because people don't think that men would say that about other men. Therefore, that common justification would not apply in all circumstances.

Unfortunately, misogyny runs like a vein throughout these crimes. And the attitudes to them. I don't think anyone would have any trouble believing that if a man raped a woman and then same man raped a man, on the same day, at the same time, in the same place, the woman would still be asking for it, or not avoiding the risk, but the male victim would just be unfortunate.

Look at the justification going on for the recent crime at speakers corner. Not only did the woman ask for it, her very defence was used as justification for the crime in the first place. You don't get more fucked up than that in terms of attitudes to women.

Yes, Datun, spectacular derail.
Some time ago, local to me, a man was dragged down a lane and raped by a group of men.
The comments on the local paper's page were exactly as you'd see for women - victim blaming, questioning, actually finding it funny, suggesting he probably liked it. Horrible. So I'm not sure people would sympathise more if more victims were male.

deydododatdodontdeydo

I'm very surprised. What was their justification to think he was asking for it?

Thank you Datun.

Unfortunately, misogyny runs like a vein throughout these crimes. And the attitudes to them.

Very much so. Misogyny is inherent in the crimes themselves - the complete disdain for women and girls, it's beyond a disregard, it's complete contempt, the desire to inflict such an abhorrent act on someone because they're female. Again, I'm not sure how well I articulate this, but it's such violent misogyny which is harboured by far too many boys and men. That's what I started this thread about, as well as my general ire at this attack and what the girl attacked went through and will continue to go through.

I think the attitudes towards these crimes are, as you say, inherently misogynist from many, as are the attitudes towards women and girls generally. From judging attire of young girls, to questioning the actions of girls and women, to comments derailing discussions of these horrific attacks on girls and women, all seek in my opinion to deflect attention away from the actual issue: violent misogyny and male violence against women and girls. The attack at Speakers' Corner is another example of women being blamed and told they deserve attack; it's also enraged me.

deydododatdodontdeydo

I was thinking more along the lines of why was he in that place, at that time, what was he wearing, why was he so drunk? Those are among the top rape myths levelled at women and girls.

I find it difficult to believe that those opinions are commonplace if a man gets raped. Although if he was gay, and performing femininity, I can totally believe they do. But that's homophobia.

nolove

Yes, totally. Frankly, you shouldn't have the resources to post these stories of women being attacked.

You should be able to go online, or open a paper for years on end without finding a single one. (Well, forever, but you get my point).

It's so depressing how normal it is.

I'd like to see you post things like man gets 25 years for rape, with the regularity that you are able to post about these attacks.

I strongly suspect they would get fewer and fewer.

I agree Datun and that's what most enrages and upsets me - that these attacks keep happening. Every time I read of one these emotions come to the fore, I can't help but think about the girl/woman attacked, feel rage at the violent misogyny inherent, feel (not to appropriate the distress of course, it's those attacked who suffer from them) that they are attacks on all girls and women. That they take place at all shows how much violent misogyny exists in the thoughts of some.

I also feel the same on the sentencing for such crimes which I think is woefully inadequate. It's bad enough so few rapists are ever arrested, let alone charged, let alone convicted, without the often paltry sentences handed out when they actually are (with only half actually being served in prison). Meanwhile victims are forced onto waiting lists for counselling and have to live with what a boy/man chose to do forever.

nolove

Your posts are always irrefutable. You say it like it is.

I'd be interested to know what your dad thinks can be done.

I know you have mentioned that you talk to him and you put your point across.

Does he have any ideas?

I think being clear that the vast majority of perpetrators are male (latest stats I saw I think from the WHO was 95-98%) mainly against females helps pin down the cause and the desired effect much like pointing out that something the significant higher risk that disabled girls and women face of being sexually assaulted (something like 80% of us). It's a power play within the idea that power is best shown through force. Generalizing the source and the victims clouds that.

I was raped by a group of women when I was 18 - two held me down while a third used a large white round object until the bed was covered in blood. 13 years on, I remember it in vivid detail...and them laughing as they walked away that I had been "taught a lesson". Not for a moment have I thought what happened to me was diminished or ignored by being clear that male violence (which perpetuates power = force) is the core to be tackled.

Having seen how very different people react to the abuse and violence I've lived through from both sexes whether its parents, partners, or professionals like above, generalizing only protects perpetrators in my experience.

Thank you very much Datun. As I hope you know, I always find your posts hugely informative and it's very heartening for me to know you think mine are good!

I do talk to my dad about feminism a lot, this issue sadly unsurprisingly being a regular one. He thinks Alison Saunders is doing a lot of vital work as DPP and that the way these cases are investigated and prosecuted has improved a lot (though is far from perfect). He's told me of some discussions regarding changes which could be made in terms of trials and reassured me in a small way that at least others in the profession are aware of the need to improve conviction rates for rape, which are appallingly low. On a wider point of male violence against women and girls he tries his best to be supportive of me and comprehend my rage at its regularity, which I speak of quite a bit (though not as often as I feel I need to if that makes sense, it's difficult to consistently bring it up to family or friends). I will certainly never stop bringing it up with him though.