14 year old girl raped in broad daylight

[NoLoveofMine]

Not that any rape in any circumstance isn't horrendous but yet another horrific case, a 14 year old girl raped in a park in the middle of the day. That this kind of thing goes on and receives so little coverage is abhorrent. I'm so angry at the lives of women and girls being ruined like this, because these men choose to attack. I'm not articulating this too well but am just enraged.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/girl-14-raped-london-avery-hill-park-greenwich-teenager-a7949851.html

No it isn't derailing

I've asked - how do you think we can make things better for women?

Is it actually part of the problem that it is so difficult to discuss?

This is the post where you put your questions Increasinglymiddleaged

Well assuming that there is no level of sexual abuse that can be acceptable Elendon what about when the perpetrator is in fact a woman?

I can't answer that as I don't understand the question.

Firstly why the theoretical statement about "assuming no level of sexual abuse is acceptable". Why would there be any doubt that it is unacceptable?

Secondly the first part of the question bears no relation to the second.

Are you trying to suggest anyone thinks there is an acceptable level if the perpetrator is female? Who has suggested that ? No one here. The criminal justice system certainly does not.

Is it helpful to always put males in the offender role and women in the victim role

Again I don't understand your question. The victim of a crime is the victim; the person who carries out the crime is the offender.

Had the victim been a boy the reports would have said so. Had the offender been a woman the reports would have said so.

(cf (a)the case of historic abuse recently prosecuted where underage boys were being abused by a flasher heterosexual couple having public sex and enticing underage boys to join in and (b) the women who was charged and convicted as part of the Newcastle grooming gang)

Or does this actually have the effect of making it easier for people to blame female victims?

Again I don't understand the question. What is "this" which you think makes it "easier" to blame women?

I disagree with both you and NoLove stating women and men are constantly at risk. This is a meaningless statement. I am no more constantly at risk of being sexually abused than I am of being burgled.

Sexual crimes happen far more frequently to women than men and by far the majority number of perpetrators , regardless of the sex of the victim, will be men. It is no denying there are male victims to say that the majority of victims will be female and the majority of perpetrators will be male.

Again I don't understand the question. What is "this" which you think makes it "easier" to blame women?

Well some people blame women for being drunk, wearing short skirts etc. It may well not be easier to blame women it's just a question that I raised. Another poster said it was sexism, I don't know perhaps it isn't.

And you are constantly at risk of being burgled aren't you? I don't understand your point there.

Is it helpful to always put males in the offender role and women in the victim role

I think you are right, each case is reported individually about individuals. That means that more victims will be female. I'm referring to the assumption that when talking generally sexual violence is a male on female issue because of it being the case most of the time.

Well increasingly this is the feminism board and posters here tend to centre women in our thinking. There are zillions of places that you can go to discuss men and their issues / problems. If you hang around here you will see that many of us are parents to sons, partners to men and have men that we love in our lives. However, on this board and particularly on this thread about the rape of a 14 year old girl, we reserve the right to consider the issue of male violence towards women and not to have to always centre men in those discussions.
So yes, you are derailing.

And you are constantly at risk of being burgled aren't you? I don't understand your point there

Only if you think every one is "constantly" at risk of every single crime which is capable of being perpetrated against them- thus "contantly" is meaningless.

it is actually shocking the attitude that you have to others who actually care enough about the title of the thread/ victims of sexual abuse.

Why are our attitudes "shocking" and why are you insinuating I don't "care enough" about the issue highlighted in this thread (which I started)?

This is a meaningless statement.

No it isn't. Women and girls are harassed, sexually assaulted, raped and murdered in any kind of situation, by men and boys known and unknown, regularly. Pedantry over semantics on this issue is quite irksome.

There are zillions of places that you can go to discuss men and their issues / problems.

But my main point was to ask whether seeing this as an issue for women makes it worse for women and violence against women. That isn't derailing at all it is a valid question. You can say 'No that's not the case because.....' but it feels to me on this thread that there is a unwritten code of conduct on this subject that isn't allowed to be challenged. As a woman and a feminist that worries me. Free speech and challenging attitudes is vital.

Why are our attitudes "shocking" and why are you insinuating I don't "care enough" about the issue highlighted in this thread (which I started)?

I have never said that you don't care about it. I am shocked by the attitude that others only care if they follow the party line and agree with you exactly.

The problem with MN is you end up opposing people when if we actually talked we would find that we could explain ourselves better and actually agreed on 95%+/ reach consensus on the rest.

The enemies here are the vile rapists not other posters on this thread

"whether seeing this as an issue for women makes it worse for women and violence against women."

So you think naming the problem makes it worse? And that we should therefore effectively ignore the fact that the vast majority of sexual assault victims are female, and the vast majority of perpetrators male?

I find this a completely baffling argument, and nothing you have said gives me any clue as to why you might think this. It's not a question of a party line, it's more that you are doing nothing to clarify a very muddy and tendentious line of thinking.

Women and girls are harassed, sexually assaulted, raped and murdered in any kind of situation, by men and boys known and unknown, regularly. Pedantry over semantics on this issue is quite irksome

I did not say they weren't. "Constantly" is still the wrong word.

But my main point was to ask whether seeing this as an issue for women makes it worse for women and violence against women

Are you trying to say this should be seen as an issue of male violence because some the victims will be male? And to not acknowledge that is doing a disservice to male victims?

Or are you trying to say there are female perpetrators too and this should be recognised too?

In either case I'm struggling to see what point you are making. The vast majority of perpetrators of sexual violence are male and the majority of victims are female. How does acknowledging this make it worse for women?

It's the idea that victim blaming is sexist that other posters have said they believe is the case. Nowhere have I said I'm right, it was a question.

frogsoup

So you think naming the problem makes it worse?

Thank you Frog- far more succinctly put than my 3 paragraphs. I too am baffled.

So you don't think that women victims are disproportionately blamed?

I am shocked by the attitude that others only care if they follow the party line...

There is no party line on here - posters are a glorious collection of (mainly women) who discuss, challenge, educate, argue despair and on occasions laugh as we try to analyse our different feminist views on life. There's a lot to be shocked about but I would suggest that being shocked at posters on here rather than at the rape of a 14 year old girl which is the subject of this thread shows where your particular priorities lie.

Yes, but I have no idea why that should mean that we can't acknowledge the fact that most victims of sexual assault are women. You can't just pose a random question as if it's cutting-edge intellectual enquiry that we now all need to discuss in detail - it has to have some kind of meaningful hypothesis behind it!

I too am baffled.
Me three

I promise I'm more shocked by the rape, I am rather about where you got that from.

Unfortunately there isn't much to laugh about on this subject

So you don't think that women victims are disproportionately blamed?

I'm sorry you have lost me completely but refer you to Frogsoup's comment below. Is that what you are saying?

So you think naming the problem makes it worse? And that we should therefore effectively ignore the fact that the vast majority of sexual assault victims are female, and the vast majority of perpetrators male?

I just quoted you where you said that you were shocked!

And me four baffled

In response to many of the comments above, boys are also at risk. They all need better protection including self defence classes at schools and tougher sentencing for rapists.

Ttbb. None of us would disagree that all children are at risk from (mainly) predatory men ,

I have to say it enrages me we can't talk about the specific and clear risk women and girls are of male sexual violence without it being derailed. Street harassment, sexual assault, rape and beyond, there is a particular risk of this for women and girls.

You can't just pose a random question as if it's cutting-edge intellectual enquiry that we now all need to discuss in detail - it has to have some kind of meaningful hypothesis behind it!

I didn't. I didn't really expect it to cause quite such a hoo haa to be honest. You could have ignored me, but instead I was constantly accused of 'derailing'.

I was merely pondering whether there is a need to be careful about how we see rape against women as feminists. If victim blaming is more likely where the victim is female (shouldn't be out after dark, she had tequila etc) then might it help women if rape is seen in general as a crime potentially against anyone rather than being female-specific? So I don't feel comfortable as a woman as the automatic assumption being that women are the victims.

Some people have understood and made valid points such as any case is specific to the people involved so it will always be case by case anyway. Others have said men can also be blamed as victims.

The most important thing is I really hope we are all on the same side here whether you think I'm talking tosh or not.