Guilty Feminist: minefields

[LondonPainter]

I usually listen to the Guilty Feminist podcast and enjoy it as they have an interesting diversity of guests. However, this week's episode...

The trans woman on the panel was talking about pussy hats with the argument about their being offensive due to not all women having vaginas. There was some attempt by others to argue the case for the hats but it sounded very much like someone who'd grown up with male privilege telling the women how they were doing feminism wrong, with no attempt to compromise or understand their reasons.

Later there was a discussion on gender-neutral toilets and it would have been good, for balance, to have a voice on the panel speaking for those women who quite like to have their own toilets.

Did anyone else listen?

Yes i am glad they did the episode too.

The other thing that struck me was that I thought Reubs was a scientist? Then later was like "biology shmology" or something when Deborah asked about having a female penis. And something like if you "feel" or want to call your vagina male/penis female that's all fine. I know that's a trans thing but when you're in the field of science? I just thought you'd be less likely to pick and choose what facts to disregard.

In fact, I find overall that the podcast has a different feel when they have a MTT guest. For a start, the MTT guests that they have had on, always sound to me like men talking. Without any visual clues the register of their voices makes me think man, the way they frame there speech, which is often very much as a pronouncement to a room full of eager listeners that they are keen to educate, makes me thing man, and the way the other female presenter react to them also subtly seems to imply its a man talking. Very much a sense that they (the other, female, presenters) need to give way to the point that the MTT guests are making even if that point does not completely fit into the wider discussion.

This probably just reflect my own ingrained prejudices and I might well be over thinking it.

I wonder why Deborah thought she had to edit and modify her language? Its her podcast and her body parts. Did she mean on this podcast, or in everyday life?

I will try to listen to the podcast.

I've still got half of it to listen to but my heart sank when Reubs started denying female biology as trans exclusitory.

Yes it was uncomfortable wasn't it, cordelia. Really hard to listen to.

I agree, the dynamics are different with trans women guests on.

Though there have been previous podcasts, for example recently when she had two black women on and was talking about white privilege, when I've felt the same sort of vibe. She deliberately gets people on whose voices aren't necessarily heard so much, and she tries to really listen to their perspective and lets them challenge her own thinking. So she does defer to them, and apologises a lot. I guess from DFW the attitude is the same. I feel from the trans women it's less reciprocal maybe? At the same time in the minefields podcast they talked about trans people desperately trying to get their voices heard at the moment, and maybe that's just a stage the general public discourse is at.

I found it very hard, without any visual cues, to not just hear Ruebs as a man. And I don't think that's just down to her voice, but I'm not sure.

I thought it was interesting what Ruebs was saying about trans women often wearing very gendered stereotypical feminine clothes, particularly to start with, as it's their way of saying 'this is the tribe I belong to'. The way she explained that was helpful to me.

Ahh... it's so confusing... I like the inclusive and kind approach. I've never had an issue with an individual trans woman. And I feel like trans people are rebelling against the same shitty patriarchal system and ridiculous gender stereotypes that I am! So we should have a lot in common. But I also want to be able to talk about women's issues, and women's biology, and for that to be ok.

biscuit, for me the difference is whether trans people are refugees or colonists.

I understand why people want to refugee out of gender roles - I get why men would want to exit toxic masculinity when they don't feel it fits them. I get why women would want to run away from the strictures of female sex role stereotypes. I get the refugee. And I am happy to stand by them and help them, as they ought to be standing by me. The first rule of the refugee should be: if you want to identify as as women, start by identifying with women. People who get this are allies.

But the colonists, I won't tolerate. The ones who want to tell women what being a woman is, the ones who want to tell us about female penises and male lesbians, the ones who push us ever deeper into the boxes of gender roles because it suits them that the boxes exist, they just want to jump from one to the other, and make all the women in the "woman" box budge up and accommodate...those people, I will fight.

biscuit I also though the point about wearing very gendered clothing so as to be identified as belonging to the ‘woman’ tribe was an interesting perspective. Also Reubs saying that she would not want to dress up and wear make-up in a society where that would be seen as male behaviour. I think it has helped me understand the concepts of ‘cis privilege’. I don’t really do feminine clothing - jeans, jumper and trainers most days - and I don’t wear makeup, but no-one would mistake me for anything other than a woman. I guess if you are trans and you goal is to be seen as a woman then going for very gendered clothing and make up is the way to do it. I can also see how it follows that pointing out all those other ways you differ from ‘cis’-women does feel very aggressive and undermining. I am just not convinced that is good enough excuse. Just because you want - even feel you need - to be perceived as part of that ‘woman’ tribe does not give you a right to insist that you are and to manipulate the definition to prove it. Which I guess is what Sophocles means by colonists.

I agree with pp that say feminists and trans have things in common - e.g. Reubs mentioned the ridiculousness of gender reveals for unborn babies. Also that perhaps the aim (one day) is to be post trans, where gender doesn't matter. But the aims in between veer drastically.

Also I would agree that the trans women they have on sound like men (apart from the lower voice) and they definitely change the dynamic.
Leyla has been on before and Deborah once referred to her as an FGM campaigner (supporting FGM) by accident and Leyla pointed it out and Deborah made a joke and even mentioned it the next time she was on as a running joke. But in this episode Carrie (co host) was talking about a previous episode where Avery (trans woman guest) called her out for saying "ladies and gentlemen" and Carrie said she didn't speak for the next 10 minutes. She said "oh it was really good of her to do that" but I was a bit . Yes so great that you felt you couldn't say anything as a woman on a podcast about feminism.

I have just listened to this and thought it was great. Very bold of them to tackle the issues I think. I thought Leyla saying "if I am in a battle, I expect you to stand with me", was brilliant. But I did find myself saying "oh just fuck off" when Reubs said she was calling TERFs 'TERFs' because they don't like it. Erm, you are literally doing the exact same thing as you object to - calling someone something they don't like.

I also found myself wondering about what kind of warped privilege women have that means our pussies are grabbed, and our genitals mutilated, and yet we're not allowed to talk about it, because...cissexism. Doesn't sound like privilege to me.

I thought the male privilege episode was good too, and found it quite funny when the MTF guest was so SHOCKED by her experience of it. Though it did piss me off when she said "just ask for a bigger slice of cake". We don't ask for a bigger slice of cake, because we've been socialised SINCE BIRTH to accept a smaller slice - it's not that we've just not thought of asking.

I listen to the GF podcasts when I run and tend to startle other people by laughing out loud and/or saying "oh FUCK OFF" (as today). Might need to go back to just listening to music.

Just been listening to it while doing the garden. Quite a few shrubs have bourne the brunt of my frustration.

Deborah tried so so bloody hard to be inclusive, to be kind, to be nice, but there is no compromise with these cunts; it's submit or nothing. Haven't listened to it all, my fitbit was registering abnormally high heart rates so I started on the red.

I don't think I can face the new Reubs episode. She comes across as very young. Is she?

Cherrypi I thought the same and I think I've listened to them all. I don't know, maybe 20s?

The majority of biological women have vaginas, the possession of which causes them to be oppressed as a class.

Yet they are not allowed to identify/name their vaginas so as not to offend trans women? Fuck that shit.

It does indeed seem like Deborah's need for inclusion is in this case defying reason. I had to stop listening after she/Reubs started talking about the female penis.

Yes I'm about there too. Going to the gym shortly and will resume listening. May have to do some work on the punchbag.

It's utterly infuriating. She would be as well sitting at his feet and asking what he wanted her to do/say. I actually feel humiliated on her behalf, honestly, the whole thing gives me the willies.

"Oh yes twelvety I forgot to mention the FGM, which Reubs thinks should be renamed Misogynistic GM "

I swore out loud at that point, startling a man walking past my garden.

Twelvety The woman who was chastised for saying 'Ladies and gentlemen'. I mean really. Fuck Right Off.

And Deborah, repeatedly saying She Wanted To Learn. She was willing to do as she was told, more like.

Awful, awful, awful

And the transwoman had a man's voice. Wasn't even effeminate

(Maybe I shouldn't listen to the rest )

AssignedPerfectAtBirth but does it give you the male willies or inclusive female willies?

I've never listened to Guilty Feminist but I know some of my friends do.

It sounds seriously annoying but also as if it might be helpful in pushing more people towards peak trans? As someone said upthread, with no visual cues people are just hearing a male voice trying to stop women talking about their own bodies.

I'm half an hour in and I'm finding it hard work. I've just listened to the monologue about the horror of saying 'ladies and gentlemen'. Its telling that after she was pulled up about excluding non binaries, she didn't say anything for half an hour afterwards. I think that's the point if this movement - people are so scared to say the wrong thing, they don't say anything at all.

Its a pity that this podcast isn't for me - I listen to loads, but they are mostly hosted by two or three men and I want more presented by women.

I've just listened to the bit where she said she edits references to her body out of the podcast. Why? It sounded to me as if she was asking the mtt permission to start using words like vagina and mensuration. I noticed he didn't say they were perfectly fine words to use.

The bit where leyla mentioned that babies are subjected to fgm, and Deborah said its far to soon to know whether these are male or female victims? Wtf.

These men are taking the ability of victims to talk about what is happening to them away and all Deborah can say is how can we make feminism more inclusive, more about men.

I think its because its easier to sit back and let the men take to stage than actually stand up to men and the damage they do to women.

Oh, and the buzzer thing was ridiculous.

This episode more than any had me shouting "oh fuck off" too; glad it wasn't just me. The bit that clinched it for me was the discussion of women from NI having to cross to GB to get access to abortion. DFW seemed to really be sticking her neck out to say that this is a Born Women's issue and she didn't feel that we had finished dealing with these things yet so there wasn't room to move over for trans issues here. I agreed so much with her perspective there and was glad as I don't usually see trans things from the same viewpoint as her. Reubs massively failed to offer a satisfactory response to that one - she pretty much dodged the question and moved on - which suggested that not even she could conjure a response which wouldn't be completely, obviously aimed at silencing women.

I usually love the guilty feminist and I thought attempting the topic was brave. I saw several occasions where Deborah and Sofie were ripped into online early on for not being inclusive enough. It felt and continues to feel that whatever they say is wrong according to someone. I usually love the guilty feminist and I think that might be why DFW edits out any mention of her body etc. Hearing her trying to stand up for the facts that something's biologically can only be experienced by women sadly felt brave rather than a straightforward fact and she wasn't supported. I am supportive of everyone's right to identify in a way that feels right to them but I don't feel I am being deliberately inflammatory or prejudiced to say only a biological woman could experience periods, abortion or childbirth. Isn't that just a..... well fact?
Also I can't understand why the hat thing was seen as not including everyone. Someone made the point plenty of men were wearing them too for example. How no one challenged the comment about calling TERFs that purely because they hate it. Is that different to misgendering? I was left feeling that anything I say relating to my own body and it's function could be taken as me discriminating against a transgender woman, it confuses me (can you tell?!) And I do feel silenced.

I'm on Sofie's mailing list and just received an email about her upcoming tour. Here's a quote:

• The whole tour has gender-neutral toilets

If you have a problem with this, I genuinely don't know why you are even signed up for my newsletter. It will always be SAFETY over COMFORT. So this is just how it is. No TERFS allowed to my shows anyways.

Well that's fucking depressing. Maybe you should email her Meghan Murphy's 'Terf' Article

As I said upthread I think Sofie is an intersectional feminist and has had only gender neutral toilets at her venues for a couple of years.