Why are feminists so aggressive?

[BertrandRussell]

This, or something like it, it always being asked. People say that the FWR board on here is scary and hounds out people whose faces don't fit. That women are always being told they can't be feminists if.......And so on. And so on.

In my experiences, you are much more likely to get an aggressive response if you express a feminist point of view than the other way round. Is it just me? Or am I missing something?

There have been plenty of interesting feminists threads recently, where everyone seems to be holding their own- but the same old accusations keep coming up.

Also - why are feminists so aggressive? Because we are hysterical wimmin innit

I don't see anything wrong with aggression, playing nicely hasn't worked, what are we meant to do? And the bar for aggression is set very low for women.

I'm only ever aggressive with my feminism when people are shouting me down and being aggressive.

"I think because I really, really don't understand why some people hate feminists so much."
Because what we are saying (well, us radical ones anyway) is extremely challenging and shocking. Okay, gay people have been saying equally challenging things as regards how gay people have been treated throughout history, in terms of what was done to them by the rest. But as regards gay folks (I don't really want to say gay and lesbian there because that brings women into it as well, so lets lump lesbians in with gay (men) and forget the other issues!), perhaps the difference is that once we have a few legislative advances (marriage, equal rights for gay couples when booking hotel rooms or ordering cakes etc), you have a system where for most people, they don't have to do stuff that is that different. It doesn't effect the (straight) man in the street. Because not all men have a gay relative or are gay. But feminism is different because the changes we are talking about will effect every man, since every man had a mother. So every man is involved, in principle.
So, in a weird way I seem to have argued that things like gay marriage (which I never expected to see in my lifetime!) were actually easier to obtain in the west, and despite the seemingly enormous and virulent hatred and violence aimed at many gay people and that still occurs.

Whereas for women? Feels like we have quite a few legislative changes, but making all of the changes I think we need in everyones home and family (since everyone has a mother, even kids with two gay dads) as regards women, that will seemingly take a lot longer. Because it is a much bigger change that is required. Society has managed to adjust to gay rights by making gay couples just like everyone else (and then you can flog them gay wedding packages hurrah!). The liberation part of gay liberation seems to have got lost when the claims that some people just were gay (but not many) and couldn't help it were used to promote gay rights.

I had a long discussion with you Bertrand about some posters thinking they have the right to decide if a woman is a feminist or not. There was a long thread recently claiming that Mariella Frostrup was not a feminist because of some perceived misdemeanour. You consistently used the word non feminist to describe someone who disagreed with your version of feminism. Feminism should be a broad church and empower women to participate in discussion about the future of feminism. Not dismiss someone who expresses a non board approved opinion as a non feminist. It is so patronising and hostile.

I think Lass is a very important poster here. She has said that she doesn't identify as a feminist, but if there'sa thread about prostitution or porn then I breathe such a sigh of relief when I see her name.

I genuinely have no idea what you're on about lass. This is a feminist board for feminists. Of course anyone can post here but the response from feminists will be from a feminist point of view

Likewise little idea what you are on about either. Given posters can't even agree on what a feminist is I'm unclear what you mean by "a feminist point of view".

What is the feminist point of view on the sex "industry" for example?

Mrsmuddlepies-I can't remember posting about Mariella Frostrup! Has the gin bot the better of me?

If the op means why are feminists aggressive, then it's probably because we're all ugly, hairy, lacking humour and therefore scary, right?

If it means why are these boards perceived as aggressive, I think OlennasWimple has probably hit the nail on the head; there are a lot of posters here who are obviously very well educated, have done a lot of thinking and discussing and are able to articulate things very well. Then there's people like me who are feminist to their core, but who don't discuss it often, lack the coherent thought (or the ability to express it) and so just normally don't bother joining in.

It's a bit like the difference between talking politics in the pub with your friends, and talking politics in the pub with a bunch of PPE graduates/active politicos.

Somedyke, that's a really interesting perspective. I have always struggled with the discrepancy between how far I perceive the rights of gay men have changed compared to woman's rights. I believe my friend who was a gay man who died in the mid nineties would not believe the advances that have been made. I attributed this either to the fact that men are listened to more than women or that I couldnt understand the prejudice faced by gay men because i am straight. Your suggestion is a really interesting alternative.

A feminist point of view is one that recognises the way in which women are oppressed by patriarchal society.

Taking that point of view the sex industry is an extension and expression of that oppression.

Look up the thread about removing body hair. You made repeated references to non feminists. Simultaneously on Feminist chat there was a whole thread about Mariella Frostrup being a non feminist. Disclaimer, I am sure that Mariella believes herself to be a feminist. This was a few posters objecting to something she had supposedly done.
It is the labelling of women I don't like and the attempts to exclude posters because they are the wrong type of feminist (in the opinion of some posters). I dislike discrimination and the attempts to make feminism exclusive and not inclusive.

I have noticed a lot of abuse and pure hatred towards women who talk about feminism on social media, especially YouTube. It's getting worse as well, there is a real backlash. Often the men criticising feminist have absolutely no idea what feminism is about or how diverse it is. It's gotten to the point that sometimes I feel too afraid to speak up or I just don't have the energy for a pointless debate.

These men just assume that as I'm a feminist I must be aggressive bitchy nasty, hate all men etc etc But before I mention feminism they react very differently.

The same with all the young women now who thinks it's so cool and original to speak against feminism on the social media platforms that feminism gave them as well as the right to talk about politics. I wonder how these same women will feel once their looks start to go and their male fans start to call them hag or past it etc or after they have children or get divorced, will their perspective change then?

All I know is I'm old and tired now and it really shouldn't be up to women in their 40's or Greer and her generation to have to keep this fight going and point out all the issues. I find young women now very disappointing.

I think we have gone backwards and I don't like this world right now very much. Men who think they can be as aggressive as they want on social media with no consequences and young women who take pride in being plastic and vacuous with this mad idea that their feminism gives them the right to run around looking like a porn star and shake their arses. It's depressing as fuck.

Taking that point of view the sex industry is an extension and expression of that oppression

That is your opinion. Not all women who call themselves feminists would agree.

Porn is exploitative , degrading and debasing.

the labelling of women I don't like and the attempts to exclude posters because they are the wrong type of feminist (in the opinion of some posters). I dislike discrimination and the attempts to make feminism exclusive and not inclusive

Yup - that's about it Mrs

Any prostitute I ever met had a terribly sad back story to tell. They may have felt empowered by selling sex to some extent and enjoyed the money but it ultimately damaged them to some degree.

Talking of boards getting nasty there is a terrible thread in auburn right now where the op tried to feed her friends children a sausage and bean casserole and has been torn to absolute shreds in the thread to the point she went to sit in the garden to have a cry. I have never seen that behaviour here. I joined Mumsnet because of this board actually.

Aibu not auburn

Titania I was on a thread in aibu yesterday, it was just awful, on both sides of the arguement really. I imagine that lots of people were hurt. I have thought about it on and off all day and wish I had not taken part. I have never felt like that about the feminism boards. I love sausage and bean casserole but suspect that might not be the point.

TBF there are lots of other reasons why the OP in the sausage and bean casserole thread has gone to have a cry, not just the volume of posters saying WTF

TBF - feta -_wtf!

I just think it ended up as a bit of a pile on and the only times I have seen that on here is when the op is clearly an mra or deliberate gf.

I actually think in the last few months the tone on FWR has become more 'agree to disagree' and less outwardly patronising and hostile.

I haven't read all 22 pages of the broadbean (which turned out to be butter bean) sausage and feta stew but the OP didn't do herself much favours !

I cooked home made baked beans once- what a colossal waste of time. Stuffing a mushroom has nothing on it.

Aw shucks Bertrand thank you.

You weren't on the Mariella Frostrup thread. It didn't generate much traffic.