Gender "neutral" school uniform

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/06/school-bans-skirts-make-uniform-gender-neutral-transgender-students/

Except it isn't. It just bans girls wearing skirts.

Yes agreed re ProperLavs

It does seem like the school in question's decision to make the uniform trousers only was rooted in an obsession about girls' modesty which invalidates their decision in this circumstance, in my opinion.

That said, I think that as a general rule it makes sense to have one uniform per school - be that only skirts or only trousers. I personally would have preferred trousers and found my uniform skirt cold in winter, too hot in summer and restrictive for movement.

I think that trousers are more gender neutral than a skirt. Most women regularly wear trousers. Most men do not regularly wear skirts.

I think a co educational school that allows pupils to choose whether to wear a skirt or trousers just perpetuates useless gender stereotypes. Boys using skirt wearing as proof that they are in fact female and vice versa for girls who want to identify as boys seems regressive.

Datun

It was Lass's thread !

I know, it just made me smile that I knew she would have things to say about it

Janice Turner rocks!

Random mailings on the theme: I'm a teacher and the girls wear kilts (it's a girls' school). I'm a drama teacher and see a hundred flashes of knicker a day, and it bothers me not one jot. I love that the girls are so absorbed in their work and they don't care. Once the deputy head came in and told some girls to 'sit like a lady' it took me ages to even work out what she meant. Then I was livid. I hate that the school enforces kilt wearing then complains when it sees their knickers. They also get told at the beginning of their GCSE exams to keep their legs closed as the invigilators don't want to see their knickers. Arg! They're not even allowed to sit comfortably to write their gcses! I would love them to be allowed trousers as well. Although I suspect most wouldn't and it might make the 'don't open your legs' brigade worse as any complaints and they could counter with 'well they're choosing to wear kilts'. (Not that the girls do complain because they've absorbed that their bodies are shameful) The answer has to be to stop shaming teenage girls for having the temerity to have bodies. But when it's coming from middle aged women apparently passionate about girls' education I despair sometimes.

The answer has to be to stop shaming teenage girls for having the temerity to have bodies.

Quite. This is by far what's annoyed me most about this story and enrages me generally. It's so pervasive and accepted, especially even coming from people such as the Deputy Head where you teach.

Agreed about Janice Turner!
I have finally abandoned the Guardian (after 30 years a reader) and taken out an online subscription to the Times. Many of their journalists are excellent, the below the line comments are (generally) less misogynistic and hostile than the Guardian with a light touch moderation system and the contrast to the Guardian's obvious journalistic bias (transgender reporting for example) is so noticeable.
(sorry for the derail)

I am not following why it is even possible to see a girl's knickers if she is wearing a knee length kilt or why it is even necessary to mention this to them.

I can honestly say I don't think I've ever experienced an underpant flashing incident by kilted boys or men.

I can see that in a drama class where you might be sitting on the floor and doing active exercises, there would be the issue of seeing underwear.

The exam invigilator comment is bizarre and awful. How dare they make the girls feel uncomfortable like that at the beginning of an exam! I've invigilated dozens of exams and couldn't possibly imagine how you could see under a desk enough to worry about seeing underwear.

Ok, but if the school (kilt one) just included bigger knickers or cycling short type garments as part of the uniform that problem would be solved.

I find the notion of mentioning seeing underwear in terms of school pretty distasteful to say the very least, let alone with the added comment of "sit like a lady". What was said with regards to sitting exams was ridiculous, not only making girls feel uncomfortable at such an important time but potentially instilling this view of themselves and the idea it's their responsibility to stop others looking.

The problem is adults looking at and commenting on the underwear of teenage girls. This would be solved by them not doing so.

If their pants cover the relevant areas why do they need to be bigger or wear cycling shorts as a required part of the uniform? I'd be horrified as teenage girl if the school I attended tried to tell me what pants I needed to wear.

NoLove is right that it's not an issue, or shouldn't be.

You are clearly not a drama teacher Lass! I think also in a girls' school the girls are less inhibited with each other, which is great. So if they're playing someone rolling around in agony they'll go for it, without policing their own movement to avoid knicker flashing.

Assassinated... you would have been horrified at my secondary school then where we had to wear specific underwear and were subject to spot checks to ensure compliance.

Yep, probably to the point of school refusal.

I know the headmaster well enough to know that, although he is an incredibly hard working and dedicated headmaster, he is also the most stubborn human being I have ever come across. He will not change his mind on this.
I am looking forward to seeing how the girls will assert their femininity with the new uniform. I am hoping that it will cause issues as they find ways to flout the rules and they will .

The headmaster unfortunately also spoke of there being issues with "decency" which shows a worrying view of girls for someone who's the head of a school.

I often wear dresses/skirts including sometimes to school (in fact always wore a skirt when I was in lower years with uniform) but never think of it as "asserting femininity".

I read this in the press earlier and this quote stood out for me (names removed)
XX, the father of new Year 7 student XX, who declined to give his surname, said: 'Woman have died and fought for the right to dress the way they wanted to and it seemed to us their rights were taken away.
'But when it was explained to us, it was about inappropriate dressing, and I think it was the right decision to make.'

Well, he was successfully re-programmed then wasn't he?

My DDs are at an all girls school, though boys included in sixth form. DD2 came home before end of term last year with a story about her form teacher reiterating the rule that skirts must not be rolled over to shorten them. She apparently told her class it was because the (male) teachers might 'not be able to control themselves'. Before I could choke on my Sauvignon, DD assured me, don't worry mummy we told her if that was true the school had better employ some new teachers rather than worry about the skirt length. She, and her friends, are 13. And the class also pointed out this attitude was just as insulting to the male teachers as it was to the girls.

Brava to your DD Judas !!

Men can't control themselves? I believe the taliban use the same excuse. Dear me, are men really that weak willed and obsessed?

I think a trousers-only uniform is a great idea. No peer pressure to wear the shortest skirt imaginable, no teaching time wasted on enforcing skirt length, no risk of boys filming up girls' skirts, no accidental pants flashing when walking up stairs or bending over. Warmer in winter. I think this actually protects girls and makes things more equal. I'd happily send my daughters to a school with that uniform, the one who loves skirts and dresses can wear them at the weekend.

Flashing my knickers was never a bother to me at school- my main issue was with the permanently scabby knees.

Interesting that making things more equal also restricts girls' choices. I'm with Lass on this one. It took me years and a couple cases of thrush to realise that skirts are more comfortable for me than any pair of trousers could ever be. I imagine that some of these girls might be the same and it seems very unfair to take that option away from them.

The only time I got thrush was when I wore tights with skirts. Now I wear cotton knickers (the nice comfy nearly granny style) and cotton pants in summer. In winter I used to be able to buy comfy 100% cotton cord pants, but now they are all 'stretch' because, apparently, women can't wear clothes for comfort, they have to wear clothes that cling to them and show how fuckable they are.