Gender "neutral" school uniform

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/06/school-bans-skirts-make-uniform-gender-neutral-transgender-students/

Except it isn't. It just bans girls wearing skirts.

@KarateKitten our school allows trousers,skirts and shorts. The girls will wear what they want. She wants to wear a skirt.

I used to wear a skirt in primary school. Just used to tuck it into my knickers before cartwheeling or doing handstands, to prevent it from getting in the way (not for modesty). I was as active as any of the boys, we all played tip and run cricket together, football or tag and so on. I probably would have worn trousers if it had been allowed, as I prefer them, but wearing a skirt was not an issue in primary school. Teachers and school staff should not be shaming children for wearing the required uniform and then behaving like normal children!

They haven't gone gender neutral, they've just made it so everyone wears the boys' uniform.

That's not gender neutral it's default male uniform.

I'd be disgusted with a school who felt it necessary to alter girls clothing adults can't be expected to not look at a child in an inappropriate manner.

They should have called the police on the perverts not sided with them.

Aside from removing the choice of skirts being an issue I'm still annoyed people who saw girls from this school felt it acceptable to complain to the school about the lengths of some of their skirts and the Head said this was an issue with "decency".

As someone who wears trousers almost all the time, I can't get really upset about this.

Yes, they made the male uniform the "neutral" version. True.

But the English language does that all the time. Job descriptions - all masculine. According to Terry Pratchett, any female shepherd with any self esteem calls herself that - not shepherdess.
Only job where I've seen the feminine option regularly used was "actress".

And you know what? It works. The masculine version may not have been neutral in the beginning, but the more people use it like that, it does become so. (And let me tell you, it works better than in German, where only the most committed people make sure to always use the feminine form, too, when talking about a group. Most default to the very definitively masculine form in the plural.)

When people started to talk about "hatred of femininity" or whatever they call it, I listened. It seemed to make sense. But now I see that those same people deny the very obvious and simple fact that men oppress women because of our biological sex. Because of reproduction. Not because of skirts.

In the end, how much does not being allowed to wear skirts harm girls in a real, material way?
It is one option less, sure, but ... let's just say, it is not a hill to die on, for me.

Girls not being allowed to wear skirts is better than them not being allowed to wear trousers AND being bullied about their alleged lack of "decency" while wearing the same skirts they are forced to wear.

That may well be true if say it had always been that way. If skirts have never been part of the uniform at all.

However these girls were told about the problem.with "decency"

If people are looking at children in that way the problem is with them

Not the children.

They are being told they are responsible for adults being unable to control themselves and That's not acceptable

Yep, I agree. The easiest way to stop all this silly and time-wasting obsessing over school skirt length/style is to have a trouser-only uniform. Some girls might like school skirts, but I like wearing a cat onesie, and that doesn't mean I should be allowed to wear one for work.

I do agree with whoever posted upthread about a cardigan option though. Long cardigans and trousers together look smart and are more flattering to self-conscious teens. DD is 19 and wears slim-fitting trousers and a longline cardi when she works in her office job. It is a professional and practical look.

*Girls not being allowed to wear skirts is better than them not being allowed to wear trousers AND being bullied about their alleged lack of "decency" while wearing the same skirts they are forced to wear

These girls are being bullied into wearing trousers.

In the end, how much does not being allowed to wear skirts harm girls in a real, material way?

Well apart from reinforcing the idea that anything traditionally seen as masculine is better than anything traditionally seen as feminine.

Indeed Giles. It's bad enough people complained to the school about this, never mind the head endorsing their view rather than challenging it.

Some girls might like school skirts, but I like wearing a cat onesie, and that doesn't mean I should be allowed to wear one for work.

Yes because actually liking and wanting to wear something that is part of the uniform (or was) equals wearing a cat onesie to work.

Yep, I agree. The easiest way to stop all this silly and time-wasting obsessing over school skirt length/style is to have a trouser-only uniform. Some girls might like school skirts, but I like wearing a cat onesie, and that doesn't mean I should be allowed to wear one for work

That is a ridiculous analogy.

Long cardigans and trousers together look smart and are more flattering to self-conscious teens

Does this apply to the boys who want to hide a big bottom? Personally I think the knee length kilts the girls at my son's school wear probably draw far less attention to a girl's figure than trousers would ( the girls can now wear trousers if they want- it isn't popular)

The easiest way to stop all this silly and time-wasting obsessing over school skirt length/style is to have a trouser-only uniform. Some girls might like school skirts, but I like wearing a cat onesie, and that doesn't mean I should be allowed to wear one for work.

The best way would be for people to stop obsessing over the length of girls' skirts and not insisting on skirts for girls. The difference between skirts and your example is skirts are perfectly acceptable formal attire as well as casual.

No clothing should be "drawing attention to a girl's figure" though - if they are then the issue is with those whose attention is being drawn to it, not the girls or the clothing.

Skorts might be a solution to the "skirt problem"?

no

People have bodies. Get over it

My bad sorry mis read your post [blush

Not really, because you're still insisting that skirts are indecent by definition, when they're not. If you're going to insist on a skort, then just drop the skirt part and insist on shorts.

If other aspects of uniform can be enforced then why can't skirt length? Just choose a reasonable length/shape of skirt that doesn't easily facilitate rolling up, and enforce the uniform rules properly.

No clothing should be "drawing attention to a girl's figure" though - if they are then the issue is with those whose attention is being drawn to it, not the girls or the clothing

Yes, that was badly phrased by me. It followed from the poster who commented that a long cardigan could be an option "for girls who don't like their bottom and hips on show".

Long cardigans and trousers together look smart

Well yeah...if youre my mum

Yep this had me aerated as well this morning

Dds school has blazers, they do look smart...but they are all the same blazer , boys blazers. Not particularly flattering or comfortable

Well apart from reinforcing the idea that anything traditionally seen as masculine is better than anything traditionally seen as feminine.

That's no actual, material harm. It is just a thing that happens, and that, in many ways you cannot stop from happening. You can allow girls to wear skirts, but you won't get boys to wear skirts.

Can you explain how this actually causes harm, instead of just being a symptom of the misogyny that permeates society?

Girls not getting enough exercise because they don't want to show their panties in the skirts they are being forced to wear; that's obvious harm.

Being annoyed that they don't get to wear skirts? How is that different from being annoyed that they can't wear every item of clothing that's not part of the school uniform?
(To be honest, I consider school uniforms nonsensical, anyway, but if schools want to have them, they ought to at least stop the sexism)

They mention transgender children. If it's an FtM they may have wanted to wear trousers, and some other girls suddenly wanted to, too. Or if it's an MtT who wanted to wear a skirt, the school might be worried they would be bullied. So instead of addressing these individual issues they probably thought fuck it, let's just make them all wear trousers.

The problem is they've also included the word decency. What constitutes decency? As a PP said, they will all get changed for PE, go swimming, etc.

If the girls are deliberately rolling up their skirts, for example, that should be addressed. If there are some people who are overcome by uncontrollable lust at the sight of a flash of thigh, that also needs to be addressed.

Maybe, if they had just said we find it more practical to have a uniform that consists of trousers, without mentioning transgender, gender neutrality or decency, they could probably have got away with it.

I suspect, in an effort to jump on the 'progressive' bandwagon, they've shot themselves in the foot.

What's confusing me is one school allows anyone to wear either skirts or trousers - and that's called gender neutral and this school insists everyone wears trousers and call it gender neutral....

Then there's this:

One mother critical of the changes told the local newspaper: “My daughter said she has got a gender and it’s female so being gender neutral when she has got a gender is a big deal for her, as she is proud to be a girl.”

Mermaids UK, a charity that supports transgender children and their parents, said it was pleased that the school was embracing diversity.

The chief executive, Susie Green, said: “Mermaids welcomes any initiatives taken by schools to recognise that children and young people are disclosing in increasing numbers degrees of gender variance.

“Adding gender neutral uniforms is one of many simple ways that schools can help any pupils struggling with their gender in any way, plus sends a clear message of acceptance and inclusivity.”

It is just a thing that happens, and that, in many ways you cannot stop from happening

Right ok. That would apply to many things. What an odd argument.

You can allow girls to wear skirts, but you won't get boys to wear skirts

So because boys don't stamp their approval on something let's scrap it?

Girls not getting enough exercise because they don't want to show their panties in the skirts they are being forced to wear; that's obvious harm

At school pupils will wear a PE kit for PE. They aren't at school to do exercise. Walking to and from school can be done in a skirt.

The headmaster seems even more idiotic in the BBC report.

Lewes school adopts new 'gender neutral' uniform policy - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-41178571