Gender "neutral" school uniform

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/06/school-bans-skirts-make-uniform-gender-neutral-transgender-students/

Except it isn't. It just bans girls wearing skirts.

One mother said: "My daughter and her friends are appalled by this. The school is creating a hostile environment for girls."

But who cares about them? Applying what Spartacus and middleagedmanic have said they must just be man pleasers trying to look sexy and fuckable.

why is a uniform of trousers for girls creating a hostile environment?

Good for all of you. Is it impossible for you to imagine not everyone feels the same as you

Of FFS. I was referring to the pressure put on girls. To say "that is the only reason for not wanting to wear trousers" is an awfully big read into that.

Also, the latter posts re comfort that you appeared to be addressing were a mile away from any about 'flashing vulvas'.

Of FFS. I was referring to the pressure put on girls. To say "that is the only reason for not wanting to wear trousers" is an awfully big read into that

You also think wearing a skirt comes from a desire to be "fuckable". How judgemental.

Oh Lordy Lass. You really can't see that I am posting about a cultural discourse of femininity / fuckability and not assuming that every girl who wears a skirt does it because of a personal desire to be 'fuckable'?

Either this or you are practicing Sophistry and twisting my words.

I do however question myself if need to 'dress up' for something and think 'must be a dress or skirt' because that's what society has told me I should wear to look pretty or sexy (ie to appeal to men).

I had this recently for a family funeral. Should I take a dress/skirt blouse in my small suitcase in order to look smart and appropriate? Then thought 'oh I have loads of smart black trousers - much easier to pack'. And as the only female family member there, I would have ended up following a load of oblivious old men (brother excepted) around with bare legs and silly shoes. As it was, it rained and was cold, so good choice.

^ I think I've forgotten how to walk in a dress ' skirt. I'd look like Corporal Kilnger

The senior school my sons attended banned skirts. Boys and girls wore trousers, shirts/blouses, clip on ties and blazers. The only differences were those to fit the differences in male/female body shape.
No one had any problem with it at all. Trousers for women seem to be the default in many workplaces now.
If you are going for one garment between skirts and trousers to suit as many people as possible then it has to be trousers. All boys and many girls like to wear trousers. Some girls and no boys like to wear skirts.
Agree, they shouldn't use words such as decency though, that is a loaded word when applied just to teenage girls.

Fascinating discussion. I rarely wear skirts - except when it's very hot. And I understand what people mean when they talk about the limitations of skirts and dresses. BUT, I am also very vigilant at the moment about the way so many of our choices as women are being 'policed' by others and I just see this as somewhere on that continuum.
Women and girls have worn skirts and dresses for centuries and although I could argue strongly that trousers make a practical / sensible choice as a school uniform for all, that isn't how this school presented it. It was about shaming girls who wore too short skirts and to be inclusive of transgender pupils. And that's the bit that I object to as I see it yet again about obliterating our choices and a form of misogyny. It's always about limiting the choices that girls / women can make - ALWAYS!

Your post sums it up very accurately enoughisenough

Policing and shaming girls and women with other women happy to go along with it because it suits their own personal preferences and prejudices.

My children at at this school. i was going to start a thread asking for opinions. I am frigging livid. It feels as if we have gone backwards-hugely.
it is blaming the girls for being indecent with their skirts.
I have a huge problem with this.
There is nothing indecent about my daughters' legs. If the sight of them invites some male to behave badly then why must my daughters cover up? Why can't the make be punished? Why make my daughters at fault for the behaviour of men?
I remember my teachers wearing mini skirts and being able to see their knickers when they bent over. What has happened to the
liberation of women?

It's still the same old Adam and Eve stuff isn't it? Women are blamed for tempting men, women are blamed for being indecent.

I wear trousers and leggings, always. But I have a choice. When i wear them i can pretty myself up if I feel like it or look more bloke like. i can wear trousers that flatter my shape.
My youngest daughter had to wear nasty, shapeless 'office trousers'. She has never chosen to wear trousers in her life. leggings yes, but not trousers.
All the new year 7's walking to school look like boys.
There was no parent consultation and no school wide consultation . the uniform change was revealed last summer way after the school was chosen and induction days happened.
The town this school is in is pretty quirky in many ways BUT it is also terribly conservative and stuck in its ways. It is very protective of its traditions and hates anything new .

Excellent post enough

I've had a quick look at some of the comments on line and it seems as if there's a fair bit of understanding that this is NOT a gender neutral decision. I think that we are going to have to comment widely and loudly at the moment as all of this gets unpicked.
Properlavs , does this just apply to Year 7? If so, perhaps the rest of the female student body might be able to pick this up via their school council etc? Schools are very big on 'pupil voice' - or is it now just the male voice that gets heard??

On the town's local forum there is a discussion about this. Many posters have expressed relief that there won't be any more indecently dressed girls that they have to look at everyday.( actually they will have to look at this jezebels a while longer as it's only compulsory from year 7 this year. The rest can carry on as they were.)
I have asked them what is so indecent about a female's legs/- no response.
Some have said they worry for the girls' safety and they need to cover up because of all the paedophiles.- I have asked why this is the girls' responsibility - no response.
There is no response because they actually haven't thought about these knee-jerk culturally ingrained attitudes to the female body. That she is , deep down a Jezebel and an Eve, waiting to to lure and tempt and must be kept in place.

enough, yes just year 7's. There was no school wide consultation. There was a small unelected- staff chosen student consultation body. my older daughter had no idea this was even in the pipeline, nor did the parents. My older daughters are furious about the reduction in choice.
Why a tie? Women don't wear ties.
The thrust of the head's uniform policy has always been to make it 'office like'. Women don't wear ties in offices.
It is, when it comes down to it about girls showing their legs.
My older daughters don't actually wear skirts out of school BUT they hate trousers even more. They live in leggings at home and would happily wear these to school but i suspect the staff and general public would also find leggings offensive as their cling tightly to the female form.

It's always about limiting the choices that girls / women can make - ALWAYS!

And as others have said, it's about policing what women wear in the name of so-called decency. Look at most dress codes and most of the rules are about what women/girls can wear.

I knew as soon as I read this that Lass would be commenting on it.

I haven't read the thread, mostly because I'm not doing too well at the minute, but will opine anyway, because that's what we do here.

This was misguided for several reasons.

1. It suggests that traditionally female clothing is substandard school wear. However, fwiw, with the age at which boys are accessing porn getting lower and lower, and the way that "upskirt" shots of increasingly younger girls are posted on chat groups, something had to give.

2. It would have been far better to have said that children of either sex could wear whatever uniform they fancied. The novelty for the boys of wearing skirts would soon wear off, whereas now girls cannot choose to revert to wearing skirts should they choose to.

3. How will we know which boys are stunning and brave transgirls unless they can wear skirts?

4. It feels like they are using a sledgehammer to crack a cob nut.

There are good arguments for girls to be allowed to wear trousers if they so wish, whether for modesty, practicality or religious reasons, but reducing girls' choice for the stated reason seems a bit, well, stupid.

Xenophile

It was Lass's thread !

This really fucked me off too, i don't wear trousers because my unfashionably large labia make them uncomfortable, and when I was in my teens I used to get constant thrush so again didn't want the feeling of trousers either. Also not necessarily great if you're wearing sanitary towels as many teenage girls will be, though I guess it depends on the cut. I presume schools can move on from too short skirts to too tight trousers next

SummerKelly

Good point.

Actual gender neutral would be keeping the same uniforms and letting every kid wear whatever they want from the whole list, and having the same rules for both boys and girls. Not defaulting to what they have previously deemed the male uniform.

I agree.

I am wondering if the school just thought this was a simple way of avoiding the 'discomfort' (for want of a better word) of having boys choosing to wear skirts - (either because they are MTF or simply being bravely non-conformist. The decency argument was just padding.

Janice Turner hits the nail on the head (again) in The Times

A lesson in stupidity on unisex uniforms
janice turner

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Oh for goodness sake, the idea of “gender neutral” clothes isn’t to turn children into an army of Mao-suited, crop-haired identikit droids but to give them choice. A concept which the Priory school in Lewes, East Sussex, has failed to grasp: its head has banned skirts and now trousers must be worn by pupils of both sexes.

Whereas John Lewis has the right idea: take out the labels saying “girl” and “boy” and then maybe parents won’t be funnelled towards the naff, reductive extremes. Lately fashion has assumed that every girl wants a pink tutu, a princess T-shirt and pole-dancer shoes, while boys come labelled “trouble” and only in blue.

Without labels, maybe girls will wear tree-climbing shoes, and both sexes enjoy T-shirts featuring dinosaurs or dolphins. Or a boy can damn well wear pink or a skirt for school if he likes. Who cares? Open options, don’t close them down. Because the idea that what you wear defines your gender is the nexus of much current craziness. It is why there is an epidemic of teenagers (particularly girls) saying they are “non-binary”, “gender fluid” or trans. Let’s correct the dangerous idiocy that you’re “born in the wrong body” because you prefer different clothes.

If you are going for one garment between skirts and trousers to suit as many people as possible then it has to be trousers. All boys and many girls like to wear trousers. Some girls and no boys like to wear skirts

Firstly why does it need to be one garment for all.

Secondly posters have given reasons relating to female biology why trousers are not a good choice for all girls but by your argument - tough luck as the wishes of "some girls" don't count over what all boys want.

It's great you're challenging those misogynist attitudes and comments on teenage girls on your town's forum ProperLavs. I find it enraging these attitudes towards girls are so widespread and often posted without challenge. As you say, it's an abhorrent view of teenage girls.