Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[JigglyTuff]

It's late and I've had wine and so this is probably a bit disjointed. BUT liberal feminism seems like a complete clusterfuck to me. It's all about 'reflecting on things' and apologising. God, so much apologising. I don't think white heterosexual lefty men spend their lives saying 'mea culpa' do they? But white het women seem to be on a mission to self-abase. It's really fucking odd and quite disturbing.

Is anyone else seeing this or do I need to start wearing a tinfoil hat or something?

Quencher while some politicians may enter the field with worthy notions, their priorities soon change and become as follows:

1. Self. They love being on theach gravy train.
2. Backers. Who keep them on the gravy train and will continue to use and reward them once out of politics.
3. The Party. Being a member of one is handy.
4. The electorate. Way down the politician's list of priorities and mostly seen as an inconvenience to be patronised and soft soaped once every few of years.

None really care about about women. None really care about the electorate. And we are the stupid sheep they believe us to be if we think otherwise. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

*Disclaimer: I am aware of my prejudice against politicians as a group. But experience has taught me that I am right to have this prejudice.

one of the feminist FB groups I'm on has just posted to say that "Trans women are women" (among other more reasonable declarations). Apparently it is a fact! They have decreed there will be no debate on the subject and if you dare say anything to the contrary you will be kicked out.

That's some really fucked up feminism IMO.

'MotherPeresA

DJBaggysmalls

I didn't mean anything so involved. I read Pizzey's memoir quite a few years ago, but I am relatively certain that it was she that pioneered women's refuges in London. I am also relatively certain that she saw herself as entirely distinct from - and ostracised by - radfems of the time. I make no comment about this (except to say that I was very inspired by Pizzey's book). I'm merely adding some facts to an erroneous statement.'

Pizza did not pioneer refuges for women! That was a movement that started in the 19th century. So yes, she has attracted criticism because she is not being entirely truthful.

Pizzey not pizza, autocorrect strikes again.

My understanding is that Pizzey started the first shelter purely for domestic violence in modern society - Chiswick Women's Aid, in 1971. In any case, she was a pioneer who raised the profile of domestic abuse at a time when it really was seen by many as OK to give your wife (and kids) a thump and was repayed with huge misogyny.

I am very uncomfortable when women who may not have lived through the 70s start dissing our older sisters who were putting themselves on the line in far less enlightened times. It is easy to sneer from the safety of the noughties, but Pizzey was brave and standing up for vulnerable women against mainstream opinion.

I suspect I am a libfem, having read some of the negative quibbling from the radfems on this board. I'll never be pure enough for the rads, so will hang out with wine, laughter and sisterhood with my fellow wishy washy libs

TheLuminaries

Ahhhh I too am not "pure enough" but then I like being a bit dirty.

Radfems also do wine, laughter and sisterhood y'know.

In fairness cuirder the self styled radfems on this thread have been a bit light on the sisterhood bit

I did live through the 70s and I'm not dissing 'our older sisters'. I was simply pointing out the fact that Pizzey may have made a name for herself when she opened her refuge but apart from gaining public funding for she did not do anything new or original. Women had been opening refuges for over a century, using their own resources and at cost to their reputations and safety. Pizzey's refuge was opened at a time when society had started to see that there was a need for such places, hence the possibility of accessing public funding. If anyone is 'dissing older sisters' it is her in claiming to be a pioneer when she was not.

" I'll never be pure enough for the rads,"

Can I ask what you mean?

TheLuminaries Wed 30-Aug-17 08:02:47
In fairness cuirder the self styled radfems on this thread have been a bit light on the sisterhood bit smile

We cant critisize liberal feminism without it being perceived as a personal attack?
But Libefems are the ones repeating 'Trans women are women' at the expense of women.
Being sex positive and supporting prostitution in the face of all the evidence of the harm it does to women.

Making snide comments about how radfems are humourless man haters - how about some liberal feminists criticize Radfem politics with facts, not lies or personal comments.

It's fascinating how radical feminists are fair game for snide comments and insults- the "humourless anti fun" tripe is alive and well! I wonder if some of it is about the fact that many of us are older women? We are the feminist equivalent of the Mumsnet "old biddy" aka anyone over 60 and therefore fair game. Greer's "crones"......

Radfems also do wine, laughter and sisterhood y'know

Although generally I've not found them to be quite so patronisingly passive aggressive about it ...

I dunno, I think I'm a rad fem (but I didn't know it) and I'm a 'young' 40!

My experience of liberal feminism is most certainly not wine, laughter and sisterhood.

I've recently come over to the radfem side :)

True Bertrand. Like we're Millie Tant from Viz. It's great to see purported feminists joining in with the men as they characterise us as sour dried up old crones. Or shout "fuck off TERF" at us on social media while proclaiming "sisters not cisters". Even cringey labels like "sex positive" to differentiate them from all of us "sex negative" feminists pouring cold water on porn and prostitution

I wonder if some of it is about the fact that many of us are older women? We are the feminist equivalent of the Mumsnet "old biddy" aka anyone over 60 and therefore fair game. Greer's "crones

Heh! When I was a wee 'un it was the liberal feminists who were the older ones. I used to snigger at their power suits and/or pearls. But they were not the same ilk as the liberal fun feminists of today. Hell, when I was a fem tot being a liberal feminist was about as uncool as it was possible to be.

I'm mid 20's & RadFem. I reckon I'm old before my time although that's not necessarily a bad thing

True Bertrand. Like we're Millie Tant from Viz. It's great to see purported feminists joining in with the men as they characterise us as sour dried up old crones. Or shout "fuck off TERF" at us on social media while proclaiming "sisters not cisters". Even cringey labels like "sex positive" to differentiate them from all of us "sex negative" feminists pouring cold water on porn and prostitution

This. It's really not something to be smug about.

I consider myself a liberal feminist but don't go along with all the trans stuff. To be honest I think all the trans stuff is a fad and will fade with time.

I'd say for every radical feminist I know or at least that way leaning, they were first a liberal feminist.

I see it as a sort of gate way drug It has it's uses.

There's a gleeful thread today about 'everyday feminism' that makes for depressing reading.

Jesus people, can't we pick the right enemies? Or do rad fems really just like hating other women who Do Feminism Wrong?

Oh, and fwiw most politicians go into it because they have a social conscience and want to make the world better.

You might think Cameron and Osborne were evil, but they'd have had far easier and better paid lives as stockbrokers (like Cameron's dad, grandad and greatgrandad) or nominally running the family wallpaper business.

Oh, and fwiw most politicians go into it because they have a social conscience and want to make the world better.

Nasty old radfems eh pan?

Yeah. Ironically, it's exactly that unreflective hatred that the Putin bots are pushing to undermine democracy.

Hilarious, isn't it, the idea that politiciains might not all be villains? 'They're all the same. Why bother to vote at all. Pat yourself on the back at how amazingly clever you are to have seen through the con and don't bother with anything as silly as voting.'

What do you think makes people deliver leaflets in the rain and work hideous hours and knock on doors and go to endless tedious meetings and put up with mindless abuse like yours other than a sense of duty?

And don't give me 'expenses'. Chuck the expenses on top of an MPs salary and theh can still make more money with a lot more security as a lawyer.