Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[JigglyTuff]

It's late and I've had wine and so this is probably a bit disjointed. BUT liberal feminism seems like a complete clusterfuck to me. It's all about 'reflecting on things' and apologising. God, so much apologising. I don't think white heterosexual lefty men spend their lives saying 'mea culpa' do they? But white het women seem to be on a mission to self-abase. It's really fucking odd and quite disturbing.

Is anyone else seeing this or do I need to start wearing a tinfoil hat or something?

This constant misuse of the word liberal really irritates me.

"This constant misuse of the word liberal really irritates me"
Say more?

'socialist feminism as I understand it is a hybrid of socialism and radical feminism'

I did not know that. It's interesting.

Bertrand, being a SAHM is not a non feminist choice.

I dont know any radical feminist that judges other women for making a choice - unless its a choice that actively harms other women.

I've been called a TERF by liberal feminists, and a misandrist by MRA's and liberal feminists. Just for saying I'm a radical feminist.
I do not hate men. I dont think they need the small amount of help I can give. My resources are limited and I know where I want to spend them.

The radical feminist position is that the choice remains a fundamentally non feminist one, but that if you make it, you make it open eyed.

Yes I see what you are saying. It is what I had suspected.

I am aware of my current vulnerability. But there are plans in motion that will ensure I have a more independent future.

"Bertrand, being a SAHM is not a non feminist choice."

I think it is. You are making yourself financially dependent on someone else-and you are perpetuating the idea that child care is woman's work. And it is very unusual for a SAHP to do more than their fair share of "wife work".

being a SAHM is not a non feminist choice.

But it is a choice that is influenced by a patriarchal society that frames women as the care giver, with their place being in the home while men provide.

Yes women have the choice to work now and it was fought for. But women are still largely responsible for the home and children in addition to WOH.

Women haven't been given the choice of equality in the roles they occupy. They have been given a choice to add to their load.

You went further than what you think, and into this statement:

'The radical feminist position is that the choice remains a fundamentally non feminist one.'

I don't believe that is the radical feminist position. I'd be interested to know what radical feminists on this board think, because it is a frequent criticism of feminists - that they are opposed to SAHMs - yet frequently denied on these boards.

I'm not opposed to SAHMs. I actually think that if possible, children should always be looked after by one person who loves them, and that person is usually a parent. But I am very aware that even though I think this is the best for children, it is generally really bad for women, both as individuals and in society. It leaves women financially vulnerable, it perpetuates the view of women as carers and often sabotages their position in the workplace, both individually and collectively.

I would consider that to being opposed to SAHMs.

Are you a radical feminist, Bertrand?

"I would consider that to being opposed to SAHMs."

Would you? I would consider it being in favour of them but acknowledging that it is a very complex issue.

"Are you a radical feminist, Bertrand?"

Yes I am.

rockshandy wrote - "does the fact that I am married and that I chose a traditional wedding and I am a SAHP who is supported by her husband exclude me from being so?"

No. Your marriage and your source of income do not exclude you from radical feminism.

Some leading feminists, whom I would place at the radical end of the feminism spectrum, including Andrea Dworkin and Germaine Greer were married to men.

I would consider myself to definitely not be a radical feminist then.

Why?

I'm not a SAHM anymore. My kids are grown up. But the most important thing in the world to me is being with the people I love. Now my kids are grown up, that just gives me more time to spend with my sister, my parents, young children in my family, elderly family members.

A large part of feminism for me is recognising the huge value of unpaid labour and relationships.

Paid work is just something to keep the wolves from the door, and most of it is a bunch of hierarchical exploitation of workers.

If feminism is about promoting the workplace as some kind of security or liberation, it is in total opposition to my core beliefs.

Because clearly, clearly, lib fems and transwomen are the enemy here.

(There's one trot faction sitting in the hall/and if that trot faction should accidentally talk there'll be two trot factions...)

Oh Lord, I shouldn't be flippant, but watching the miserable intercine fighting that FWR us don't half bring out the worstin me.

The pattern seems to be:

1. Define rad fem as the only good feminism. In doing so define transwomen as sick, cis as a term of abuse, sex workers as victims whether or not they agree. Tell women who don't agree with you that they're not feminists and/or need to grow up.
2. Complain that so few women define as feminist.

Rinse, repeat.

socialist-feminism :
• oppression of women is socially constructed and rooted in the structures of society ie the class system
• The oppression experienced by women in our society is rooted within capitalism.

Women are the most oppressed class. MC women might be less oppressed than black men but black women are the most oppressed. It is the structure of capitalism that causes oppression. It is only by removing (reforming?) the capitalist system that women can be truley equal.

So within pornography it is market forces and the oppression of the workers that cause the issues not the filming of sex acts in and of themselves.

Sylvia-but what about financial security? For women- and their children when young.

'Given a choice to add to their load'
This is where I usually come unstuck innfeminist discussions, and I think that it's probably because I'm an old feminist.
In the 70s, a lot of loving men in our lives tried to stop us doing things because we were the delicate, nurturing gender that needed a strong man to protect and care for us. The restrictions were 'because we love you and don't want you to get hurt' Madonna behind a masculine shield. So for many of us, that was the struggle in our real lives, moving beyond the protective, infantilising masculinity around us.
So it pisses me off when women don't expect their partners and make children to do their fair share. I had a FT job and two children and a partner. I added to my load when I had children, but so did he, and he didn't see it as 'helping out' Why tolerate a partnership that isn't one?
That weary martyr role infuriates me, and I see it a lot.

Pansiesandredrosesandmarigolds

You define the curse of the left. The right would sup with the devil to gain power. See Republicans in Congress and the Tories and their Northern Irish friends.

While on the left it is far more important to maintain our ethical purity by not working with The Judean People's Front when we are the People's Front of Judea.

It is useful to define different strands intellectually but it is wrong to use these definitions to deny entry to the Citadel of Feminism.

Pansies- do you think that is happening on this thread?

On this thread:

"Lib fems are a clusterfuck"

"What have the lib fems done for us?" Followed by a list of legislation fought for by lib fems amoung others.

In all fairness after a poor start the debate has improved dramatically.

'Sylvia-but what about financial security? For women- and their children when young'

It should be provided by the state. The wages for housework campaign has led to things like tax credits.

Some of the core components - council housing, health care, nursery provision, school transport, pensions should not be under threat, and are important for many people, not just those doing unpaid labour.

I don't see how the workplace being the only mode of financial security is radical.

'The right would sup with the devil to gain power.'

The right also fight between themselves all the town. That's how we ended up having an EU referendum.

Town? Time!