Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[JigglyTuff]

It's late and I've had wine and so this is probably a bit disjointed. BUT liberal feminism seems like a complete clusterfuck to me. It's all about 'reflecting on things' and apologising. God, so much apologising. I don't think white heterosexual lefty men spend their lives saying 'mea culpa' do they? But white het women seem to be on a mission to self-abase. It's really fucking odd and quite disturbing.

Is anyone else seeing this or do I need to start wearing a tinfoil hat or something?

Omg ive spelt your name wrong

Sorry quencher

@Missymoo100 actually she didn't say we should tear it down and be vengeful. What she said was in simple terms, be true to history and it's facts. Be open to Britain's history. Teach the correct history. At no point did she say it needs to come down. She did say the uk and world is looking at America in horror. At the same time forgetting it's history and what they did to the world. The monuments they built here and those they tore abroad and it's an issues that the uk is trying not to address, it's going to be an issue in the future.

countries have started asking for their stolen artefacts back. This is not going to end anytime soon. No one is trying to take away your privilege or make you feel bad.
"The reaction in Britain has been, as in the rest of the world, almost entirely condemnatory of neo-Nazis in the US and of its president for failing to denouncethem. But when it comes to our own statues, things get a little awkward. The colonial and pro-slavery titans of British history are still memorialised: despite student protests, Oxford University’s statue of imperialist Cecil Rhodes has not been taken down; and Bristol still celebrates its notorious slaver Edward Colston. When I tweeted this weekend that

We have “moved on” from this era no more than the US has from its slavery and segregationist past. The difference is that America is now in the midst of frenzied debate on what to do about it, whereas Britain – in our inertia, arrogance and intellectual laziness – is not.

The people so energetically defending statues of Britain’s white supremacists remain entirely unconcerned about righting this persistent wrong. They are content to leave the other side of the story where it is now – in Nelson’s case, among the dust and the pigeons, 52 metres below the admiral’s feet. The message seems to be that is the only place where the memory of the black contribution to Britain’s past belongs. This last bit at the bottom of the article was her point. I guess you didn't get that far. I saw her channel 4 interview too. Funny how the Irish woman forgot her history. We cannot constantly talk about the historical greatness of the uk knowing that we having selective memory on what we teach.

From her point of view is, America is probably in a better place if they come of it their side.

I am sorry if someone thinks I am derailing the thread. I just can't read something I know it's not true and leave it when I know it's going to affect how people will view me in real life.

Just keep in mind, when he beats you, radical feminists made the first domestic violence shelters.

I'm guessing you haven't read Erin Pizzey's memoirs on this?

@Bertrand

I view myself as a Liberal Feminist. I believe that the law should ensure men and women are equal and have equal access and rights. From there I tend to take a step back from interfering in people's lives. Provided that support structures and legal assistance is available i think women should be allowed to get on with life the same way as men. I don't believe in using feminism as an excuse to micro manage other people's lives and judge people based on their free choices as free people.

However I am not in favour of trans politics, or all the cis BS or defending religion.

Maybe I am out dated and should use a different name.

Thank you, thephonywar.

Can you say what you think about prostitution and pornography?

I know this off track (sorry Bertrand) but back in the old days there was not such a sharp distinction between liberal and radical feminism and nor were the camps so strong. In fact, once we were all feminists and that was that. And of course in the UK we had the likes of Sheila Rowbotham and Juliet Mitchell who were socialist feminists. A lot of the 'firsts' were by ordinary feminists who may have leaned in one direction or another or borrowed off the theory palette for different things, but they didn't wear a feminist branded t-shirt with liberal or radical on it. Also, neither liberal or radical feminism are the same then as now.

I agree - being a feminist was hard enough without having to decide what sort of feminist you were. I think everyone who called themselves a feminist was a radical feminist back when I were a lass.

At the risk of upsetting some people, I do wonder whether a radical feminist position is just too demanding for many people ( and I can see why!) so they have come up with ideologies that still hold to equality but involve more compromise.

Bertrand - I think liberal feminism came first, to be honest, and then the radical feminists broke away. But the UK was very much coloured by socialist feminism too. I'm personally wary of radical feminism for a few reasons and am a little concerned that post 1986/7 or so it has become focussed on first porn and then on prostitution to the detriment of so many other issues it used to focus on such as reproductive rights, abortion rights, women's health, etc. I'm also very wary of a lot of the allegiances I see with conservative religious women and groups, especially around prostitution. I liked the emphasis in socialist feminism on critiquing marriage and the gendered division of domestic labour and on disadvantage more generally. I see much less of this these days. But the liberal feminists I knew as a lass were older women mostly who focussed on getting women into politics and on lobbying for policy and legal change. They are poles apart from those who identify as lbfems these days.

the Hungarian government have been running an anti Soros campaign because they say he is masking political activism in the forms of non governmental organisations.

That's really interesting, I didn't know that.

@Bertrand

In principle I do not object to the concept of prostitution. That is I believe someone has the right to exchange sex for money and this transaction does not negate consent. However, the reality is that on the whole prostitution is a dark, seedy, nasty and dangerous 'job'. Women (and men that prostitute themselves to women and men) are mostly exploited and coerced into it. Perhaps the best solution is legal, women led establishments, but I'm not an expert on how successful or safe that really is so it's not something I would strongly argue in favour of.

The same applies to porn, to a large extend. However I am someone that enjoys watching porn and have made amateur stuff. I am a bit of an exhibitionist so i don't really need persuading to be filmed having sex. I get off on it. Where people freely choose to film themselves having sex then I support it.

My feminism is about freedom of choice. If women or men freely choose to consent to something then I cannot object to it. I support peoples freedom of choice.

My feminism is about freedom of choice. If women or men freely choose to consent to something then I cannot object to it. I support peoples freedom of choice.

I guess for me there are two issues with that.

1. individual choices are not made in a vacuum. They are affected by other factors and pressures and in turn that choice may affect other people.

2. it's sometimes very difficult, even impossible to know whether a choice is freely made, to a greater or lesser extent.

Thank you, phonywar. Last question (I think. In a classic piece of victim blaming, I am going to say it's your own fault for being so accommodating!)

How do you think you are different to radical feminists?

MotherPeresA I have read Erin Pizzey, and she seems like a nice person who met working class women for the first time.
Are women only allowed to be true passive victims? Are we not allowed to be real people or fight back? The lives of working class women are not nice or peaceful.

I dont know what your comment is supposed to mean. Did women make a mistake opening DV shelters because women are also capable of violence?
DV shelters were a state change. The police used to pick women and children up and return them to violent husbands, like they were stray dogs.

I am not anti men Quencher, thanks for repeating that myth. I am pro women.

@eresh,

1. As a Liberal Feminist I understand choices aren't made in a vacuum but even so, if someone's choice is a free choice, I support it. I am sure my exhibitionism doesn't exist in a vacuum and has roots in my youth but as an adult I can freely choose to be an exhibitionist. My choice. My freedom.

2. I agree. When I've made amateur porn and posted it online I've made it clear either in comments or during the video that I am freely consenting and enjoying myself. I seek out porn that does the same.

@Bertrand,

No problem.

I am not too sure what would define a radical feminist.

I'm finding this thread very helpful, and YetAnotherSpartacus has nailed it for me personally. I understood that I was a feminist in the mid 70s as a teenager, and the movement was very different back then with fewer waves and more obvious targets. I was part of the Uhuru in Oxford group for years, I identified as a liberal/socialist feminist I suppose; equality, anti gendered roles, pro choice, anti porn and prostitution, working with men who agreed with those ideologies. There were others who were part of feminism, but more Dworkin philosophy. That was what I thought of as RadFem. But we were all part of a feminist movement trying to force change.
I just feel very old and sad sometimes when I see how much we accomplished and how much of that is being frittered and lost by choice, and how new ways to oppress and control women keep popping up, whilst the old ones keep going.
So having thought about it, my problem seems to be that I haven't evolved very far in my attitudes from how I was in my 20s.

@Bertrand,

Just had a quick Google about it.

I don't agree with it. I don't believe in the patriarchy and don't think society needs to be reshaped.

There have always been different kinds of feminists. Sylvia Pankhurst was a socialist feminist.

My understanding of Sylvia Pankhurst was that she was a feminist and harboured marxist / socialist views as well, but socialist feminism as I understand it is a hybrid of socialism and radical feminism and radical feminism did not exist in the first wave. It is a second wave phenomenon. There may have been historical precedents, but this is not the same.

Eyes - you are likely a decade older than me - but it is nice to know that I am not the only one :)

At the risk of upsetting some people, I do wonder whether a radical feminist position is just too demanding for many people ( and I can see why!) so they have come up with ideologies that still hold to equality but involve more compromise.

What does the radfem position demand?

I am not as educated as many of the posters here on feminism both past and present, but I am trying to learn and educate myself.

So far I have been under the impression that my views align with radical feminism.

However, does the fact that I am married and that I chose a traditional wedding and I am a SAHP who is supported by her husband exclude me from being so?

I fully agree that choices are not made in a vacuum, and personally I made these choices before I formed my opinions on feminism. So must I divorce my husband and get a job in order to live by my views and become a fully fledged radfem? Does having a choice but choosing the wrong one mean my choice is invalid?

I know this may come across as snippy but it is genuinely something I have been wondering, I am not having a go.

I have interesting discussions with DD, who identifies as feminist, but at 27 it is a very different world she lives in. The trans issue is one we disagree on. DS is supportive, but having being told by his sister that he can't be a feminist because he's male, he just plods on believing in equality and doing his fair share of the work.
I enjoy reading threads, but I think I'll just stick to 'old feminist' without any subdivisions.

I don't think I would have labelled myself a radical feminist if not for the trans issue. I would have just called myself a feminist. But I feel the need to distance myself from third wave liberal feminism. Because it has become so polarised.

I don't think you do rockshandy :)

I'd say that being aware that you didn't make those choices in a vacuum and thinking about the structural imperatives that influenced your decision means you can still be a rad fem.

I would say though (and I'd say this to any woman in your position), make sure you have a financial nest egg that is yours and yours alone. Things can change and SAHPs are very vulnerable.

"However, does the fact that I am married and that I chose a traditional wedding and I am a SAHP who is supported by her husband exclude me from being so?"

No. But for me it is all about awareness. Feminists make non feminist choices all the time. Some people- I think many liberal feminists would agree with this- think that because a woman makes a choice, it automatically becomes a feminist choice. The radical feminist position is that the choice remains a fundamentally non feminist one, but that if you make it, you make it open eyed. A bit like the definition of mortal sin!

So that would be one ideology of radical feminism as it stands now that I have always agreed with. Just because a woman is making the choice doesn't make it a feminist one IMO. This weaving is very complex.