White women- it's all your fault

[WeldMeDaphne]

I will preface this by saying that I am indeed a white woman. And I realise this affords me a lot of privilege.
Among a lot of the rhetoric around the Events unfolding in the US (mostly Charlottesville), I've seen a number of open letters to white women about our complicity in the neo-nazi and white supremacist movement in the US and elsewhere. Clearly those women marching last week on the nazi side were white, but there was a lot of suggestion that those white women not marching but associated with men marching (wives girlfriends etc) were just as culpable as the men wielding torches and assault rifles. I guess I would like some help understanding how this is a white woman issue rather than the white men being responsible for their own actions? I get that one of those pieces said those men are going home to pie cooked by their doting wives but I just feel as though a man who holds those views and has no issue with demonstrating them publically is unlikely to be a caring loving husband?
I am fully prepared to listen to all view points and I totally understand that the people on these marches are white, but they're mostly men, right? Sonhow is this women's fault?

Now I'm a racist? Overall and on average, yes, I would say that the predominantly non-white parts of the world are less privileged than the predominantly white parts of the world. And in the predominantly white parts of the world people who are not white are at a disadvantage.
And both of those things can be true, men can be more privileged than women but we can still accept that in some societies black men may be less privileged than white women. They would still enjoy privilege over black women who will make up a similar proportion of women to the proportion of men who are black.

And both of those things can be true, men can be more privileged than women but we can still accept that in some societies black men may be less privileged than white women

I think the issue here is that no one has specified or interrogated what we might mean by privilege.

To reduce a complicated and sophisticated issue to the binary state of white vs colour is as inane as it is unhelpful. They are umbrella terms that have lots of complicated issues within. That is why I said you can't compare your self to another person down the road because they are doing better financially. In the uk when it comes to class, white women and men look at from the point of view that they are poorer so the black or the Pakistani person financially better than them can't have it that bad. While they think about how you are better off because you are. It facing the racism they face. The percentage of disadvantages within one is group is the general idea of what the problem is.

Half the world at least is made of "people of colour", are you suggesting entire continents are less privileged? Isn't it? As a general view

You're starting to get quite racist once you get onto that tack....but that's what racism is and how it's played out in recent history and the divide is still there because of colonial rules.

I also think that, for me, the issue is that it's always women pondering this. Men rarely angst over it, no matter what their skin colour, class, creed, etc.

But if black men won't ponder their sex privilege and white women wont ponder their race privilege we are leaving black women high and dry. I don't want to be part of white feminism, I want to be a feminist. As a result I have to ponder my race privilege or I'm excluding women from the movement. My ears are open and I'm listening, that's all.

I don't want to be part of white feminism, I want to be a feminist. As a result I have to ponder my race privilege or I'm excluding women from the movement

No you're not. Other women are excluding themselves from the movement if they choose a different focus than feminism. "Intersectionality" means that feminist work gets bogged down in the focuses of colour, sexuality, ability, transgenderism, fuck knows what else, until it all becomes groups of individuals and nothing ever gets done.

I think the issue here is that no one has specified or interrogated what we might mean by privilege.
-I would say it's the inability to see the advantages you have and assume everyone has the same chances and choices you have.

• the state of living in a society which favours you and advances your chances of moving forward in life.
• having unconscious bias towards a disadvantage a group and not realising it.

Men rarely angst over it, no matter what their skin colour, class, creed, etc.not true. I have just read one article today by a black man who was talking about trump administration wanting to remove affirmative action but the people it's going to affect the most are white women because it's the group that gain the most out it.
But the reason they are doing it is because they think black people are gaining too much from it. It depends how you read but why would they remove something that advantages their own? Unless it sexism but the writing looked at from the point of view of race as reason. I saw it from both sides because trump has never been a lover of the female species unless it's for his own sexual gratification. (I would assume)

But if black men won't ponder their sex privilege and white women wont ponder their race privilege we are leaving black women high and dry. I don't want to be part of white feminism, I want to be a feminist. As a result I have to ponder my race privilege or I'm excluding women from the movement. My ears are open and I'm listening, that's all

Yes, fair enough. I'm first generation white btw (complicated). But what I see is conversations in feminism that go around and around rathe than forward when black (and other) men hardly ever question their privilege and when they are rarely called upon to.

*-I would say it's the inability to see the advantages you have and assume everyone has the same chances and choices you have.

• the state of living in a society which favours you and advances your chances of moving forward in life.
• having unconscious bias towards a disadvantage a group and not realising it*

So men have it up to the eyeballs?

But if black men won't ponder their sex privilege I read this too and it was about the people supporting R. Kelly and bill Cosby. From a race point of view. I have come across this a lot actually. Quite a few black male celebs have talked about it and how they should not be given excuses because they are black.

So men have it up to the eyeballs? I don't get it. What do you mean?

I have just read one article today by a black man who was talking about trump administration wanting to remove affirmative action but the people it's going to affect the most are white women because it's the group that gain the most out it

That's one article ... and what I don't see is black / working class / other minority men angsting about their personal privilege that they have by virtue of being men over women generally or even of their same race / creed / class etc.

I don't get it. What do you mean Privilege.

Quencher- wasn't it a black male comedian who actually brought the whole thing out into the open?

That's one article ... and what I don't see is black / working class / other minority men angsting about their personal privilege that they have by virtue of being men over women generally or even of their same race / creed / class etc. I have met some who do. That's is why I know that they exist. Most male black bloggers that I know that focus on racial issues do deep into women's issues and most tend to have support for black women while challenging male behaviour. There is whole world out there. The same way you have MRA groups there are sections of black men and am not denying that too.
We discussed this on a thread recently about the faux hoteps. So no, they are not getting a pass if that's the implication.

@YetAnotherSpartacus I though white men as group where at the top of the pyramid. (I am not denying working class underperforming men their place on the pyramid by generalising).

@DumbledoresApprentice I have heard that before too.

Quencher - maybe you have come across it more than me. I haven't come across it. To be honest, most black men I have interacted with want white men's privilege, that (as you say) at the top of the pyramid, rather than allying themselves with white or black women and otherwise on the left when women have raised their concerns we've heard 'after the revolution' while men beat their meat to pornified images of us, buy us to have orgasms in our bodies, leave looking after their children to their female partners (or whine about having to pay maintenance) and expecting up to literally or metaphorically suck their dicks while we soothe their egos.

I'm confused. How do we know it was to protect their race? from my understanding of it at the time, it came down to protect your own, based on what trump said he would do for them and their children or go with Hillary (plus she is a woman ) who was being was being supported by their most hated blacked person they could not wait to get rid of. (I haven't forgotten about the email scandal either and that would have play a part in how people voted. The fact that most women judged Hilary as not being trusted but over looked trumps flaws as u trust worth man , sexism at play). I have considered all of that and not picking and choosing. The view above was one of the direct links to the argument asked here and how people thought about. Which was not far off if I or they were wrong.

@YetAnotherSpartacus I am glad you wrote you that and not me. If I did that in reference to black women, I would be called a bitter twisted angry black woman jealous of black men who do better for themselves. They can't be bothered with all my I grained self hate issues and baggage. apparently they call themselves unicorns and the special ones because they made it.

from my understanding of it at the time, it came down to protect your own, based on what trump said he would do for them and their children or go with Hillary (plus she is a woman ) who was being was being supported by their most hated blacked person they could not wait to get rid of

But there are all sorts of polls and surveys and the like that discuss how and why people vote. It's a science - psephology. I'm more inclined to listen to this and I'd be really, really surprised if it was about race. With the qualifier that I'm obviously not from the US I'd have said it was more about class and disaffected ex-industrial communities and women in these wanting jobs (probably for 'their men'). But I'd want to see proof / evidence either way.

@YetAnotherSpartacus I am glad you wrote you that and not me. If I did that in reference to black women, I would be called a bitter twisted angry black woman jealous of black men who do better for themselves. They can't be bothered with all my I grained self hate issues and baggage. apparently they call themselves unicorns and the special ones because they made it

Have to confess that the politics of that is well beyond me.
Who would say that to you btw? I'm assuming it is members of your community - but male or female or both?

Juke- They aren't excluding themselves. If you are in a country with a race bar and a sex bar on a particular profession and feminists deal with the sex bar only then any gains made will only be reaped by white women. It's an irrelevant debate for black women. They aren't choosing to exclude themselves, they are excluded from it. It just isn't relevant to them. I mean they might think it's nice for the sex bar to be removed but for them it changes nothing.

Juke- They aren't excluding themselves. If you are in a country with a race bar and a sex bar on a particular profession and feminists deal with the sex bar only then any gains made will only be reaped by white women

And black men need to address the sex bar.

@YetAnotherSpartacus it's what comes up in debates about black men preferring and dating white women and being the golden standard or someone who has made it. The debate can easily involve black men who see black women as their Queen, to those who view it in words I prefer not to post but would not be happy if they dated outside the race, to feminist black women or those who will love their black men till death do us part and excuse any bad behaviour because deserting them means you have failed the black race as whole.

Its a huge debate that happens often but rare on Mn because it's the wrong demographic.
What is interesting is when this is going on, you find that one white person will pipe in and say love is all that matters. You could be blue, green or purple, it's who you fall in love with and people should be happy about that, while missing the whole point of the debate and why everyone is debating for different reasons. Dating the white woman in the grand scale of things is almost a none issue, but the issues around it is and you have to understand it to know what's going on and pickup on every each one of them and the angle each person is coming from.

OK - so that's the same shit that I've been reading about since the start of second wave feminism. In a way, it is good to know that it is still happening in the sense that these men are still being pulled up on their sexism and entitlement. The white posters are clearly barking or clueless or both. My experience has also been that as a white woman I will show my lack of racism by fucking them in their terms.

I find it interesting that in the most recent posts people on here are far more comfortable in saying what they think are issues faced by POC. But when actual POC discuss their experiences on this very thread, they are met with absolute vitriol. How ironic