Male suicide rates

[MissMoneyPlant]

This came up on the MRA thread...

Ok... massively NAMALT (not all men are like that) here, obviously. I know people reading this may have lost perfectly lovely male loved ones to suicide - so please understand I am talking in general terms, not about any one individual.

As someone who struggles with suicidal feelings myself (yes, appropriate people know) and has spoken with many women who are in the same boat... I find some of the stuff said around this subject really misses the point.

I mean - men kill each other, and kill women, right? So it's hardly a surprise that when they deem themselves "lesser" in some way, they kill themselves too. Not that that makes it ok, obviously, but there always seems to be the implication that women are just making a fuss or aren't suffering as much, and I don't think that's true.

Women don't tend to kill their ex partner (and/or children) when in emotional turmoil after a break-up, either. Or any of the other emotionally fraught situations when men act out their feelings with violence.

Mental health services are massively underfunded and dire. People in general are not necessarily very supportive of those with any kind of mental or emotional issues (even "ordinary" life type ones like grief). It's crap for everyone who suffers. But it seems like men collectively matter more because they "shout the loudest" (as it were) by being more likely to kill themselves. Despite more women being diagnosed with mental health issues and seeking treatment, apparently men and women are about equally represented in secondary mental health services. So men are statistically more likely to receive specialist care if they do seek help. I did wonder if this was due to them being more likely to be diagnosed with disorders that include psychosis, but apparently bipolar and schizophrenia are diagnosed roughly the same amount in men and women.

I don't know... it's just really complex, isn't it? But I'm sick of the implication that women who suffer are just making a fuss, and sexism against men supposedly being part of the problem in services etc.

Argh. Sorry if inarticulate.

When people are mentally unwell they're more likely to be violent, if they're suffering from delusions, hallucinations etc - you'd also find that most males in inpatient services are there because of other mental health problems, not suicidal intentions.

Women who self harm and make suicidal attempts are more likely to become violent when staff attempt to intervene. Also, women are more violent towards their own bodies in terms of self harm.

I have tried to take my own life before and I am not violent at all. I literally wouldn't hurt a fly. I have no violent streak. Suicide has nothing to do with being violent. It's about escape.

Men don't shout the loudest about their mental health and that's probably why so many commit suicide.

What was the aim of this thread? Can men not even die without doing something wrong?!

It's interesting about the different rates fo different proffessions.

Vestal The suicide rate is chronically high in the developed world, whereas people in third world countries who objectively have a crap life seem to be able to carry on with it.

Perhaps this is to do with a lack of community, the individualisation of society?

On the other hand you are crediting people, who in the main will have mental health issues, with rational thought about how their death will appear to others or how much pain it will cause them. Whereas you would imagine that the majority of people who commit suicide will either not be thinking rationally or not care about the pain as the pain they are already in is unbearable.?

If one is in unbearable pain, and help is not available, suicide may seem very rational. Also, for myself, the thing that stops me is knowing how it would affect loved ones. Weirdly, the closest I came to suicide I sought but did not get help, but did not do it because the person I turned to for help would have been wrecked if I had (it wasn't entirely their fault they didnt help me). Obviously I'm speaking for myself but I am aware of at least one (female) suicide (friend of a friend) where help had been sought for a long time.

Dione Many MH and suicide prevention organisations do not agree with anylon attempts being "a cry for help" and no longer use that terminology.

That's encouraging. I wonder about mental health services?

BTW reagrding my comment about secure units - I'm not sure of the correct terminology, I mean high-risk (to others) and offenders, not just locked wards as part of the standard NHS services.

You do realise that there isn't just males in locked services?

They are also not in prison, because they're unwell. The majority are also run in partnership with the NHS as they aren't prisons are people receive treatment for their mental health.

Have you got any stats for that ITCouldBeWorse?

When DP was at school his friends father committed suicide by driving the wrong way down a motorway slip road.

I don't think men commit suicide to regain control, they are fully aware that they will be dead afterwards, therefore having no control of anything and seeing no benefits from these actions

Crowdo I'm sorry you're feeling down. Maybe that's because you have a violent disposition

Why are you being so unpleasant?

It's perfectly obvious thats not what I meant. Men are more likely to act out violently when they feel bad, I am pondering whether this includes towards themselves in the form of suicide.

Nancy It is control though. Having control over whether to continue suffering. And in the case of family annhiliation it's the ultimate act of control - ending another's life. (Also presumbly such a small subset not sure how relevent it is to general suicide stats).

Boneless You do realise that there isn't just males in locked services?

I am talking about where men are violent criminals as well as being mentally ill. And it is mainly men.

Nancy Men don't shout the loudest about their mental health and that's probably why so many commit suicide.

Women dont get services either! The higher male suicide rate is not just about seeking help! Stop assuming women have some fantastic service when so many of us have nothing, and have in fact suffered at the hands of misogynistic psychiatrists and GPs.

What was the aim of this thread? Can men not even die without doing something wrong?!

I am not saying men are wrong by dying (or at least - not in that way). I am saying that the assumption that men are suffering more (leading to more suicides) is incorrect and damaging to women, not to mention not addressing the actual reasons for higher male suicide rate.

I don't think suicide is meant as an act of violence against yourself, I actually think the mentally ill person is seeing it as doing something good, relieving themselves of their problems.

I don't understand the point in your thread? Can't you see that since suicide is a bigger risk for men, they need a bigger share of the budget for mental health services.

OP, is this what you're saying: That men and women are suffering equally. But women don't end it by killing themselves?

So the high male suicide rate is not indicative of a correlation in suffering. But might lead to men being taken more seriously when they do access treatment?

Because, although that might be interesting from a psychological point of view, I'm not sure you can make it a feminist issue.

More resources for mental health treatment for both sexes, would be useful. As would women being taken more seriously in general in terms of their health, mental or otherwise.

If the male suicide rate is going down despite the shitty state of MH services at the moment, that's actually quite remarkable, no? Perhaps there is something that could be copied to assist with the rising suicide rate.

Datun OP, is this what you're saying: That men and women are suffering equally. But women don't end it by killing themselves?

Basically, yes (although I don't know if they're suffering equally because women are oppressed and oppressed people are more likely to end up with mental health issues.)

So the high male suicide rate is not indicative of a correlation in suffering. But might lead to men being taken more seriously when they do access treatment?

Yes, exactly. All those "extra" women diagnosed with mental health conditions are in primary care, not specialist services, thus being male means you are more likely to receive specialist help.

Plus the damage of the idea taking hold in society. Amongst what might be termed the most "progressive" section of society I have already seen this in action - people (well, women...) aware that "men don't talk" so making the effort for men in their lives who are struggling whilst there seems more expectation that women get on with it, "help themsleves" etc. Entirely different behaviour expected from women.

Because, although that might be interesting from a psychological point of view, I'm not sure you can make it a feminist issue.

It's a feminist issue if women's suffering is being dismissed simply because men react differently to the same suffering.

Also I posted here because I thought it was something of a safe space, or at least where women are aware of stuff to do with inequality of the sexes so we could dig a bit deeper without me being accused of hating men or something.

Senator If the male suicide rate is going down despite the shitty state of MH services at the moment, that's actually quite remarkable, no?

It is. I wonder why that is? And the increase in female suicides. Does it reflect society becoming more equal - so women gain risk factors, men lose them - or something more complex?

One thing I wonder about this is whether women who are severely mentally ill are so much more vulnerable - to controlling partners, for example - that actually a significant proportion of them end up murdered before they 'get the chance' (sorry for unpalatable wording) to kill themselves.

Hence it looks like men's poor mental health is more likely to lead to death, but actually, if you were to analyse premature death for people who are mentally ill and include murder, would the death rates be more equal?

I have no idea, just a thought.

Ok, from a very quick look at the research including a handy bbc summary, there were about 40 cases in a decade (1996-2005) where someone (mostly men) in England and Wales killed their family then themselves, so yes a very small sub-set.

Still very different to the vast number that die from depression and despair.

My experiences are:
My great uncle who ended things in front of a train.
School friend female who hung herself.
Another school friend, again female, who ended things in front of a train.
Myself I took an overdose aged 17, I really wanted to end things and if I had of had the knowledge I have now, it would have worked. I frequently feel suicidal but what stops me is knowing the impact it would have on others if I managed to do it. Something reinforced by therapy and counseling that I have had.
My ex husband talked about killing himself the first time I split from him. Again from what I know now, that was the actions of a controlling man, he didn't meant it or intend to do it but it was something he could uae against me.
My own personal experiences lead me to believe that women are less likely to take that final step, because of how it will impact those around them.

Just found this article which is very interesting in light of comparative men to women incarceration rates:
www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2016/jan/29/female-prisoners-more-likely-self-harm-statistics

The stories on here from everyone on here about their experiences are truly awful. It may be worth mentioning that the Samaritans always offer a listening ear:
www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you/what-speak-us-about/i-want-kill-myself

There are no wise words in the face of such awful loss - but again to quote the Samaritans:
"We can choose to stand together in the face of a society which may often feel like a lonely and disconnected place, and we can choose to make a difference by making lives more liveable for those who struggle
to cope. We believe we can do this because we know that people and organisations are stronger together."

I think I might have gone to the same school as you Room101. Apart from being so desperately sad, what really stayed with me about both women's deaths was the very 'male' way they killed themselves.

I'm a little sick and tired of this talking point, yes male suicide is a big problem, but actually considering that of the statistics I can find The BPS (British Psychological Society) membership currently comprises 42,088 females and 12,767 males.

Now I haven't worked professionally in this area, but I have volunteered and as a man I've been in the minority in that whilst many men do care to give their time there are usually more women in the trenches trying to help others.

So I propose when this comes up pivot the conversation towards the fact that women work more in this area than men, we tend to obscure and render invisible female achievements and contributions to society, and voila you've snookered Mr Why Don't Feminist Care About... with why don't men do more to step up or at least celebrate the many women working in mental health?

I'm trying to track down some statistics on the Samaritans I'll post back if I find any.