Male suicide rates

[MissMoneyPlant]

This came up on the MRA thread...

Ok... massively NAMALT (not all men are like that) here, obviously. I know people reading this may have lost perfectly lovely male loved ones to suicide - so please understand I am talking in general terms, not about any one individual.

As someone who struggles with suicidal feelings myself (yes, appropriate people know) and has spoken with many women who are in the same boat... I find some of the stuff said around this subject really misses the point.

I mean - men kill each other, and kill women, right? So it's hardly a surprise that when they deem themselves "lesser" in some way, they kill themselves too. Not that that makes it ok, obviously, but there always seems to be the implication that women are just making a fuss or aren't suffering as much, and I don't think that's true.

Women don't tend to kill their ex partner (and/or children) when in emotional turmoil after a break-up, either. Or any of the other emotionally fraught situations when men act out their feelings with violence.

Mental health services are massively underfunded and dire. People in general are not necessarily very supportive of those with any kind of mental or emotional issues (even "ordinary" life type ones like grief). It's crap for everyone who suffers. But it seems like men collectively matter more because they "shout the loudest" (as it were) by being more likely to kill themselves. Despite more women being diagnosed with mental health issues and seeking treatment, apparently men and women are about equally represented in secondary mental health services. So men are statistically more likely to receive specialist care if they do seek help. I did wonder if this was due to them being more likely to be diagnosed with disorders that include psychosis, but apparently bipolar and schizophrenia are diagnosed roughly the same amount in men and women.

I don't know... it's just really complex, isn't it? But I'm sick of the implication that women who suffer are just making a fuss, and sexism against men supposedly being part of the problem in services etc.

Argh. Sorry if inarticulate.

So you want to have your cake and eat it?

You don't want to have dangerous or potentially dangerous men out on the street but you want space in secure units or in acute mental health services? On a finite budget? Aye ok then

Bloody hell Lass. Surely that's over representative

The 6 I mentioned were people I had some personal connection with to some degree.

I forgot the client CEO I never met personally but communicated with by email for about a year before his death and a tenant farmer who was the unsuccessful party in a long series of court cases.

Solicitors are another profession with a higher risk. I've certainly heard of a few cases over my 30 plus years in the profession, always men.

LassWiTheDelicateAir

Yes, it does seem to be profession lead, somewhat.

Apparently hairdressers have the lowest suicide rate of anyone.

My theory is that for the majority of the time, people thank them and tell them they've done a good job.

Hear that 10 times a day and you might well feel affirmed about life.

Dentists, on the other hand, have a higher than average suicide rate. People flinching, being in pain, and getting out as quickly as possible, might be a factor.

Women use so called 'cry for help' methods, but is there evidence that these are actually intended as cries for help? There's a narrative that often seems to say, essentially 'women who try to commit suicide don't really mean it', but is there evidence of this outside choice of methodology?

I wonder about that,too.

Women tend to use methods that won't leave an ugly scene for others to stumble across - such as medication overdose. Such methods inherently have a higher risk of failure than the methods preferred by men.
If you shoot yourself in the head with a gun, you are almost certainly dead. Your corpse also almost certainly won't look pretty at all.

Some suicide methods, such as jumping from a high building or in front of a train, massively harm and traumatize other people, while at the same time also being very efficient.
My guess is that women, having been socialized to always be considerate of other people's feelings, almost never do that sort of thing.

On the other hand you are crediting people, who in the main will have mental health issues, with rational thought about how their death will appear to others or how much pain it will cause them. Whereas you would imagine that the majority of people who commit suicide will either not be thinking rationally or not care about the pain as the pain they are already in is unbearable.?

Put it this way, the fact that you've killed yourself, whatever method you used isn't going to make the people who love you feel any better. I doubt that that is a consideration for most people who actually want to kill themselves as opposed to just wanting someone to notice their pain.

I had a female friend jump off a bridge. When i was trying to make sense of it I looked into how many suicides were committed from the bridge - turns out that there are hundreds on an annual basis - obviously not well publicised for good reason. There have been as few as 2 known survivers according to info.

Other suicides known to me have all been hangings.

Dentists, on the other hand, have a higher than average suicide rate. People flinching, being in pain, and getting out as quickly as possible, might be a factor.

I dunno, you cannot really generalize that. Some people are upset about bad haircuts, and dentists see people for routine appointments and get to tell them their teeth are good, too.

And the money you are paid will also influence your feeling of self-worth.

Perhaps it is more to do with the fear of losing what you have. A hairdresser who works for minimum wage cannot fall very deep, a dentist can.
The suicide rate is chronically high in the developed world, whereas people in third world countries who objectively have a crap life seem to be able to carry on with it. (Though of course it could also be that they die of infections or work accidents if they're depressed and distracted, and it never goes into suicide statistics)

My guess is that women, having been socialized to always be considerate of other people's feelings, almost never do that sort of thing

Women do jump. London Underground statistics over a 7 year study period showed an average of just over 130 per year split 2/3 male 1/3 women.

Women tend to use methods that won't leave an ugly scene for others to stumble across - such as medication overdose

A medication overdose is a very messy business.

On the other hand you are crediting people, who in the main will have mental health issues, with rational thought about how their death will appear to others or how much pain it will cause them.

Since not all people commit suicide by the means that are easiest available to them, it is only reasonable to assume that some thought goes into it.

People who commit suicide with poisonous gas have been known to put signs on the outside of their room, warning about the gas.

So, yes, considerate suicidal people exist. There's many people who are so depressed they think that genuinely no one will care much if they don't exist anymore.

And the pilot who crashed a plane and killed everyone in it on purpose so that his suicide would get more attention surely made a decision to do what he did.

Many MH and suicide prevention organisations do not agree with anylon attempts being "a cry for help" and no longer use that terminology. Women who try to kill themselves have tried to kill themselves and are treated accordingly. Their actions are not minimised.

There is a difference between thought and rational thought. I agree that not every suicide will have common features though. I thought I'd said that in my post but obviously didn't.

I'm glad that every attempt is taken seriously, but there will undoubtably be people who choose suicide methods on the likliehood that they will be found and rescued. Not all will be. Most of those attempts will be women. Their pain regardless is unlikly to be less than those who choose methods more likely to be succesful.

There will always be a small minority for whom it's attention seeking behaviour. That still needs treated as they may inadvertantly be successful.

If men are more likely to kill themselves then it makes sense that they are more likely to be referred to the secure units etc as that will save more lives.

When it comes to suicide it's not some sort of contest between men and women. These people were so ill that they killed themselves. They can't be winners can they?

The people I know who have committed suicide were all men:

• guy at work
• father of woman at work
• son of man at work
• client.

Two of them hanged themselves. I don't know about the other two.

The two women I know who attempted suicide did so through ineffective drug overdoses.

wow!!

Sleeping I'm not really sure what mental health information accuses women of just being drama queens but men being serious about it.

Not mental health information, but the dialogue around suicide stats.

Samaritans have focused on reaching out to men of a certain age not because women are less deserving but because men are less likely to ask for help.

Yes, and that's great - targetting one of the specific issues (as obviosuly they are a listening service, not actual treatment), rather than the implication that men must be suffering more.

Senator Climate of toxic masculinity discourages men from seeking help.

Yes, but I think it does so much more than that. Like the violence thing - whether aimed at someone else or themselves. And impulsiveness as notafish mentions. Interesting point abut intoxication too.

This is what I mean, it's all so complex but seems to get reduced to something much more simplistic.

Capt Women are more likely to engage with MH services, with any health services actually. This may account for more diagnosis in women and ultimately less suicide.

But these extra women are largely in primary care, under a GP (who may have no mental health training), not specialist mental health services. The system isn't particularly working for them - it's not just about seeking help.

... statistically it is more difficult to reach men in all areas of preventative healthcare.

It's interesting that you include mental health services as "preventative healthcare". Surly the person is already ill by that point? Unless services are simply to prevent suicide, a focus which would mean women lose out as funds would be directed to men. Prevention meaning actual prevention before becoming mentally unwell - very true. Women are more likely to put effort into keeping up friendships, for example - and the answer to this is men doing the same.

HoofWanking I am so sorry to hear of your experiences.

... when I have had severe mental health issues I have sought help and I haven't gone down without a fight. I know I couldn't ever let my children go through my suicide. So, that is the line I won't cross.

Is being more likely to be caring for children, as well as a general sense of responsibility for others' emotions, is a protective factor for women?

Also - you don't sound self-pitying. I get it.

enough there is a shocking lack of resources for mental health and to me, THAT should be the focus of our frustration and fury - trying to get support for all young people with mental health problems is a national disgrace.

Erm, and people who arent young? But yeh, this. That's why it worries me when things are so stretched that there's this unhelpful, simplistic narrative around male suicide rates. We need more resources, not shunting over the ones currently helping women to men.

And I've seen this narrative in practice - men who are struggling have support from women, including excuses made for unpleasant behaviour, whilst women struggling have to get on with it to some degree. This is amongst fairly middle class, educated, left-leaning types so I doubt it's representative (these people will be well aware of "men dont open up" type stuff) but it is concerning to see it taking hold.

As for "cries for help"... The general narrative seem to be that men need to seek help then all will be well. But women who seek help, don't get it, and continue with more desperate and dangerous help-seeking behaviour, are dismissed as attention-seeking (as Icantreach points out). It's a weird sort of paradox where to be taken seriously you need to be dead.
So there is also an element of we can encourage men to seek help but there is a lot more to be done to make sure they (and women) actually get it.

Chardonnay Or did you mean they shout the loudest by killing themselves?
I put "shout the loudest" in quote marks for a reason. The individual men might not be "shouting the loudest", but collectively by being more likely to kill themsleves they are, metaphorically.

NoLove going by the latest figures, the rate of male suicide is decreasing whereas the rate of female suicide is increasing

Ah, steps towards sex equality..! We need to reduce the male suicide rate without negatively impacting on females.

It just seems like the reason for a lower female suicide rate are kind of... backhanded, somehow. Like, we're less likely to die but more likely to keep on hanging on feeling like it. Less likely to die, because society tells us we are responsible for others' emotional welfare. Less likely to commit violence, including against ourselves.

What is wrong with you, to conflate violence with suicide. You think violent people are more likely to kill themselves?

Disgusting.

to everyone on this thread who has been affected by suicide

Crowdo Your post is incredibly offensive. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Thanks ever so much. it's not like I feel shit enough already, knowing there is nowhere to turn with the stuff I'm dealing with.

Sorry, I think you're way off the mark equating domestic violence (which is predominantly about control) and the depths of depression and suicide.

Yes, I'm well aware you are using "shouting the loudest" metaphorically but I can't naje head or tails if what you want to say with it.
Man kill themselves and thus they draw attention to themselves and away from women?

How inconsiderate of them.