Male suicide rates

[MissMoneyPlant]

This came up on the MRA thread...

Ok... massively NAMALT (not all men are like that) here, obviously. I know people reading this may have lost perfectly lovely male loved ones to suicide - so please understand I am talking in general terms, not about any one individual.

As someone who struggles with suicidal feelings myself (yes, appropriate people know) and has spoken with many women who are in the same boat... I find some of the stuff said around this subject really misses the point.

I mean - men kill each other, and kill women, right? So it's hardly a surprise that when they deem themselves "lesser" in some way, they kill themselves too. Not that that makes it ok, obviously, but there always seems to be the implication that women are just making a fuss or aren't suffering as much, and I don't think that's true.

Women don't tend to kill their ex partner (and/or children) when in emotional turmoil after a break-up, either. Or any of the other emotionally fraught situations when men act out their feelings with violence.

Mental health services are massively underfunded and dire. People in general are not necessarily very supportive of those with any kind of mental or emotional issues (even "ordinary" life type ones like grief). It's crap for everyone who suffers. But it seems like men collectively matter more because they "shout the loudest" (as it were) by being more likely to kill themselves. Despite more women being diagnosed with mental health issues and seeking treatment, apparently men and women are about equally represented in secondary mental health services. So men are statistically more likely to receive specialist care if they do seek help. I did wonder if this was due to them being more likely to be diagnosed with disorders that include psychosis, but apparently bipolar and schizophrenia are diagnosed roughly the same amount in men and women.

I don't know... it's just really complex, isn't it? But I'm sick of the implication that women who suffer are just making a fuss, and sexism against men supposedly being part of the problem in services etc.

Argh. Sorry if inarticulate.

Ps. Also, the majority of mental health funding goes to secure units, and it's no surprise which sex is more likely to be considered dangerous enough to be in one of those...

Not inarticulate. I totally get you. There was a long running thread on here about women and mental health you may want to poke your head in to.

I'm not really sure what mental health information accuses women of just being drama queens but men being serious about it.
It is true that men of a certain age are more likely to die at their own hand than women. I would assume part of it is their unwillingness to get help earlier on and the stigma around being a "weak" man. Its ok for women to talk about their feelings but not men. It is also affected by method - men choose more violent methods generally so complete suicide more often. Women generally try methods with a higher fail rate so can be more often brought back.

Samaritans have focused on reaching out to men of a certain age not because women are less deserving but because men are less likely to ask for help.

There are tons of threads on here about women not having their physical pain taken seriously, and living with undiagnosed illnesses for years, which really impacts on their quality of life. If this is true for physical health (and I do believe the women's stories) then it will presumably be true for mental health as well, especially as mental health is so misunderstood and woefully underfunded.

There is a stigma, as well, about the failure rate of women when it comes to commit suicide - a failed suicide attempt is viewed as a 'cry for help' (which sounds like a euphemism for 'attention seeker') whereas a successful suicide is seen as having been genuine.

Of course, its impossible to collect data on successful suicides that were 'cries for help' gone wrong.

Climate of toxic masculinity discourages men from seeking help.

It's also to do with the methods that men use being more successful. I believe that women commit more suicide attempts but their methods often fail.

I believe intoxication and impulsiveness are factors of male suicide of a certain age group which contributes to them completing suicide more than women do in the same age bracket.

I'm not really sure what mental health information accuses women of just being drama queens but men being serious about it

No, nor that reporting generally says that.

I know several men who have killed themselves. When I lived at home , two neighbouring farmers who shot themselves and a friend from school who hanged himself aged 18 just before he was about to go to university; a friend of my son's at the same age and circumstances; a colleague's step-son, also hanging, at age 22; a colleague's father, another farmer and another shooting. I don't know any women who have killed themselves.

In the case of the farmers they are recognised as being a high risk category because of the combination of the likelihood of financial difficulties, working in solitary circumstances and availability of methods.

Bloody hell Lass. Surely that's over representative.

Probably not for agriculture - the 2 men I knew who have killed themselves were farmers. (I come from a farming background, so probably know more farmers than some might.)

I don't think women are accused of making a fuss. Women are more likely to engage with MH services, with any health services actually. This may account for more diagnosis in women and ultimately less suicide. There are lots of reasons why more men commit suicide. Men are under pressure to keep their feelings to themselves, it is often seen as a weakness to admit MH problems.

Disclosure: I'm not saying that all men are the same, but statistically it is more difficult to reach men in all areas of preventative healthcare.

God, that's awful. I had no idea that farming was so risky in that sense.

My exH hung himself after years of alcoholism.
My DP jumped over a balcony whilst intoxicated and high on prescription and (then legal) benzos bought over the internet.
One of his schoolfriends (in fact he introduced me to lateDP) killed himself via an overdose of drugs and alcohol.
I have spent a lot of time thinking about male suicide and mental health of men and women. I don't know the answer but I do know that when I have had severe mental health issues I have sought help and I haven't gone down without a fight. I know I couldn't ever let my children go through my suicide. So, that is the line I won't cross. And I have been on a voluntary section in the past so I am not unfamiliar with suicidal ideation.

Males account for three quarters of suicides. At the same time, going by the latest figures, the rate of male suicide is decreasing whereas the rate of female suicide is increasing: www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2015registrations#uk-male-suicide-rate-decreases-whilst-female-suicide-rate-increases-to-its-highest-rate-in-a-decade

Jeez, my post seems very black and white. I am just tired of it all. I'm exhausted by helping my children through their grief. I am left picking up the pieces . I don't mean to sound self pitying. This is just my experience.

HoofWankingSpangleCunt

I read your post with increasing disbelief. Two partners? I'm so, so sorry. What a bloody awful hand to be dealt. And yet you are thinking about others, your children.

They are fortunate to have you.

Words from random strangers on the Internet are meaningless, but nonetheless, you genuinely have my sincerest sympathy. And admiration, for your clarity of thought.

I know of 5 farmers who killed themselves (4 were the fathers of people I knew, 1 was a family friend) plus a father of another friend hung himself. My own father attempted suicide but was found when his room mate came home unexpectedly as he'd forgotten something and saved. If he hadn't, I wouldn't be here typing this.

Guns/hanging were involved in all incidents.

Apart from myself, I don't know any women who have either killed themselves or tried. However I'm not in the habit of telling people about my unsuccessful attempt either so that doesn't mean I don't know anyone else who has tried. Certainly a lot of my friends have had therapy for various reasons.

I'm currently undergoing treatment for PTSD and apart from one male psychiatrist who told me that whilst I had been through a horrendous and traumatic experience, women like me "intelligent, articulate and middle class" tended to get better on their own accessing services once I admitted to myself that I had a major problem wasn't hard and at no point have I been made to feel a like drama queen.

I think it's a hugely complex area. All the men in my life definitely have the attitude that medical problems of all sorts should be ignored/not dealt with as if they are shameful or a sign of weakness and I think that's especially true of mental health ones.

But it seems like men collectively matter more because they "shout the loudest" (as it were) by being more likely to kill themselves

But they don't. They just get on with it and do it. They kill themselves.
Or did you mean they shout the loudest by killing themselves?

Women are more likely to ask for help and accordingly more likely to get some help.

The difficulty on numbers is that suicides are generally obvious (I do understand they can be disguised as accidental) whereas as attempts are often kept quiet by the person. So very few people in my life know I took an overdose in my earlier life, when my friends brother hung himself or my sisters best friend (female) killed herself it was obvious and could be recorded as such.

Of course it shouldbt be about taking resorces5from one gender or only improving them for one gender. However the group most likely to complete suicide are likely to get more resources thrown at them because the outcome is so final and there's no scope for post-attempt intervention

Yes, I know of two suicides in my circle of acquaintance - both men, both farmers (I'm also originally from a village) - both shot themselves. Farmers necessarily have firearms, and they're a very final, and certain way to kill yourself (plus, plenty of time alone, early mornings/late nights, stress over all the business etc. I think it must be very hard to be responsible for livestock for example)

It's so very complicated isn't it - everything feeds in - being responsible for children as Hoof is, whether you ask for help (and I don't agree that women are allowed to talk about their feelings BTW - there's very little tolerance for grief or anything uncomfortable), how services respond to you, hell, even the time of year and whether you can get out of the house. Mental health services really can't be one size fits all - they need to be individually tailored, and that's something the NHS can be particularly bad at in my experience

From my working background, a lot of the women who feel suicidal have an eupd diagnosis which can have a lot of stigma attached to it.

The majority of men, within my working settings, rarely talk about their suicidal feelings or self harm - therefore it's a lot harder to predict and usually, is a successful attempt.

With regards to your statement about secure settings, in which I work with females, it's much harder to work on the female ward than the males - also, when pregnant, there is generally less risk to be working with the males than it is to be working with the females.

Obviously, this is only in my experience and is not everyone's experience.

Sorry OP - in this instance I really feel that pitting the sexes against each other in terms of mental health treatment is unhelpful. After many decades of working in schools I have dealt with probably a 100 or more young women who have made suicide attempts and survived receiving support / treatment afterwards. Of the much smaller number of young men (maybe 10 plus), one was literally moments from death (was found by a relative and cut down when trying to hang himself) and the other one was not found before he had hung himself. I understand that it is the case that young women stereotypically do the 'cry for help' attempts while the methods that young men often use are so 'dangerous' that they are 'successful' in killing themselves.
I don't mean to be critical over such a sensitive area but just find it really unhelpful to look at it in this way - there is a shocking lack of resources for mental health and to me, THAT should be the focus of our frustration and fury - trying to get support for all young people with mental health problems is a national disgrace.

datun thank you for your kind words. Words from strangers aren't meaningless to me. I have few people in RL to talk to about this.
To the poster who mentioned EUPD, that is a valid point. I think men are under diagnosed with this as our societal constructs of gender mean that behaviours are often misinterpreted.
I have to go now as DD is waiting for me but I will be back.

I understand that it is the case that young women stereotypically do the 'cry for help' attempts while the methods that young men often use are so 'dangerous' that they are 'successful' in killing themselves.

The language we use is interesting though, isn't it? While I'm pretty sure the evidence does suggest that men tend to use methods of suicide that are more 'final' (and difficult to rescue from), is there any evidence that the difference in methodology is driven by a difference of certainty in the suicidal ideation? Women use so called 'cry for help' methods, but is there evidence that these are actually intended as cries for help? There's a narrative that often seems to say, essentially 'women who try to commit suicide don't really mean it', but is there evidence of this outside choice of methodology?

Goodness, what sad stories on this thread. I am so sorry to everyone who has lost someone to suicide. I have too. When I was younger, a man I was seeing, who was also in a group of mutual friends, killed himself. He'd gone voluntarily into hospital, as he knew his long-standing depression was getting bad again, unfortunately, he walked off the ward and killed himself. I'd taken a step back from the relationship a few weeks previously, as I had severe mental health difficulties myself at the time, and was not able to cope. It was a terrible time. No one blamed me, exactly, but...

Anyway, I do very much agree that men's mental health is a very important issue. I don't think it's a feminist issue, though. I can still be an ally for it, of course, and where helpful, give input on my understanding of toxic masculinity and the damage it causes, which is informed by a feminist viewpoint.