What's wrong with being a SAHM?

[Roseandlily]

I am not a feminist (I don't think). I currently earn more than my partner but when our baby is born I will be a stay at home mother. I love the idea of striving to be the best mother, home maker, having the tea on the table for when he gets home stuff. I love the idea of it all. But when I talk to people and they ask "oh what's your plan, how long to you plan to take off work?" And we both say I won't be going back and this will be me at home for say the next 10years give or take.

I would like to add that we would like to have 3 children so I will be at home until the last child starts school.

I don't care about amazing holidays we have done that :) or fancy cars, both had what we wanted and now have got sensible cheaper cars. We are married and have a lovely home.

What do feminists think is so wrong with this? And why do people make me feel weird about this?

That's is the whole POINT. You can't successfully manage an abusive relationship. Women end up dead, trying to do that. Or a husband who has affairs. Women need to be able to exit relationships, if need be.

It's a terrible insinuation, that women who find themselves separated/divorced/alone are in that position, because they can't manage relationships

Painful The whole point is that if you are successful at managing relationships you don't enter into an abusive relationship or don't continue in an abusive relationship. You know when to cut your losses. It is not a terrible insult to say a failed relationship is unsuccessful. It is not an insult to say an abusive relationship is not successful. If someone has a failed relationship it does not mean they can never have a good one.

That doesn't make sense.

If you are in a relationship, the man becomes abusive, you know to cut your losses and leave, then the relationship has failed, but you have successfully managed the relationship.

Spartacus

For all those saying how employment is exploitative, etc. then why is it OK for men to do this? Why is the choice to stay home almost always made by women

It is not ok for anyone to be exploited. For staying at home to be a valid choice, does it have to be made by men, then? Does a particular type of work need men, to chose it, to validate it?

If you're not married SAH is inadviseable, unless you are personally wealthy.

'If someone has a failed relationship it does not mean they can never have a good one.'

In the context of this thread, what does that mean?

So if someone decides to become a SAHM, then has to leave the relationship after ten years, the damage of that will be mitigated by them meeting someone else, who will then be prepared to alleviate their poverty?

So you can become some kind of serial financial dependent?

I don't see why some man, who is not the father of my children, should want to (or morally have to) increase my standard of living if I get into a relationship with him.

So I'd still be very poor from the first failed relationship.

The perfect housewife- thing. I think its important that your DH also wants a perfect housewife and you don't end up in a situation where he resents what you do and you do not feel appreciated. Personally I want a partner who contributes financially, not a perfect housekeeper. We both keep house anyway as everyone has to. I think a lot of people who work don't get the perfect housewife thing as to be honest I also bake, make dinner, clean my house.....

Spartacus, I said this,

If you are successful at managing relationships, if you are financially dependent sometime in your life the impact can be lessened or completely negated.

Notice relationships is plural, when I originally made this point. One failed relationship does not mean someone is unsuccessful at managing relationships, as a whole. You have to sometimes make mistakes in order to learn. If you never made mistakes it would mean you never tried anything new - which would be a mistake in itself.

What I find interesting is how SAH Dads are treated differently. I'm currently pregnant with DC2 and after a years maternity leave DH will give up his job and look after both DCs at home (DC1 will be in school by then). This makes more sense for us as I am more ambitious, earn more money and am more likely to progress in my career. I have a professional role that I enjoy and do not want to give up.

People's reactions to this have been mixed. DH either gets treated as if he is some kind of hero or pitied as if he isn't being a proper man. But no one has warned him of the financial consequences of being dependent on me, which is something that we have discussed.

What mistake?! If you marry someone who appears in every way to be reasonable, and then they become abusive, and so you leave, you haven't made a mistake to learn from.

In the context of this thread, what does that mean?

In the context of this thread, IMO, a good relationship is a non exploitative, non oppressive, mutually supportive one.

My point was that people can be supportive in more ways than just financial ones. People need support beyond finances. Money cannot buy you the care that family and friends can provide.

If you marry someone who appears in every way to be reasonable, and then they become abusive, and so you leave, you haven't made a mistake to learn from.

Most usually most abusers, if you have known them long enough, before you marry will betray their character in some way. However it is completely understandable to make mistakes, so there is no need to be defensive. A mistake is still a mistake even if you made it in ignorance.

clarity
I'm struggling to agree with you about this.

It feels very close to victim blaming.

Surely the whole point of feminism is recognising that there is a societal power imbalance which plays out in individual relationships.

When women come out the worse in those relationships- that societal power imbalance is a factor in women's financial status thereafter.

It is not ok for anyone to be exploited. For staying at home to be a valid choice, does it have to be made by men, then? Does a particular type of work need men, to chose it, to validate it

It needs to be an even playing field where gender roles don't overly determine choices made. Currently, they do.

If you are successful at managing relationships, if you are financially dependent sometime in your life the impact can be lessened or completely negated

I wasn't drawing any attention to that?

It is victim blaming.

And yes, Adelica, coming out of one relationship into poverty puts you in an even greater imbalance in future relationships. Because not only will there be an imbalance due to gender, but also a new economic imbalance.

Surely the whole point of feminism is recognising that there is a societal power imbalance which plays out in individual relationships.

But that imbalance is as likely to be played out at work as it is in the home. A woman who goes out to work is no less victim to societal imbalance. It is just the fine detail of how this imbalance may affect her might be altered.

It feels very close to victim blaming.

So does saying choosing to be a SAHP cannot be a feminist choice and is damaging to the feminist cause. It places the responsibility for eliminating workplace discrimination between the sexes purely on women who have opted out of the workplace. It devalues the work women do in the home and child rearing. It suggests work requires male validation.

Negating the importance of learning how to have successful relationships (outside the workplace) suggests financial status is more beneficial in society. Negating the value of unpaid work supports this idea.

Portraying women who have had unsuccessful relationships as powerless victims does nothing to liberate them from male oppression.

But that imbalance is as likely to be played out at work as it is in the home

Of course. This is why we need to keep challenging workplaces as well as domestic ones!

The op asked for the negatives. She didn't ask what was positive. Nearly every single response said there is nothing wrong with it, but pointed out the risks. In turn we have a number of stay at home parents being defensive and angry. The risks are real, they are not judgements, they are simply warnings. We even see it on here regularly.

If it works for you, as it does for many, then don't be angry or defensive. It's not a judgement. She asked and people responded with honest answers of the risks involved and those risks are very real.

However what the hell its got to do with feminism I don't know. I can only assume the op thinks feminists wish to work and non feminists wish to stay home, which is why she has said she is not s feminist.. Which is total bullshit. She doesn't believe in the advocacy of women's rights or the equality of the sexes? Op, if that's true, i worry for the way you will bring up children of either gender.

'Portraying women who have had unsuccessful relationships as powerless victims does nothing to liberate them from male oppression.'

Nobody is doing that.

But women who have been in abusive relationships have been victimised.

The crux of your argument is that women are usually able to detect which men are likely to be abusive prior to pregnancy, and so are usually able to avoid entering into such relationships.

I don't think that is a feminist perspective at all.

We should definitely be making women more aware of signs of abusers and abuse, but your stance on it is unrealistic and contrary to what organisations like Women's Aid say.

I wasn't drawing any attention to that?

Spartacus, you referenced another poster's comments to the original point I made there. Here:

Spaghetti, so how would you have managed my particular risks? Managed advocating effectively for a child through SEN process and flexible schooling

Suggested that DP do it while I concentrated on my career.

Managed to not get breast cancer

Men are at risk of getting sick too.

And thanks for your responses. I'm not sure it would have made the quality of our family's life any better though. In fact it probably would have been worse. My particular formal qualifications and skill set meant I was better placed to advocate for my child. So do you think this was less of a feminist choice than if mine and my DH's roles were reversed?

I don't know why these threads keep cropping up. There's nothing wrong with anyone being a stay at home parent, there's a lot wrong with the still ingrained assumption a woman in this situation should put her career on hold or sacrifice it so her husband can pursue his, hers isn't therefore deemed as important. Also wrong is the number of women pressured into staying at home if they have children either due to cost of childcare or pressure from their husbands/criticism of mothers who work.

I thought everything you did. Now I'm stuck and financially fucked. That's why.

The crux of your argument is that women are usually able to detect which men are likely to be abusive prior to pregnancy, and so are usually able to avoid entering into such relationships.

I don't think that is a feminist perspective at all.

I am making a counter argument. To address the balance of being skilled at judging a prospective partner's character being given less importance in society than being able to make lots of money.

I see both as good skills to acquire. I don't judge being less successful in either area as being more or less feminist.

It needs to be an even playing field where gender roles don't overly determine choices made. Currently, they do.

So what are you proposing, in the meantime, Spartacus? That instead of playing to our particular strengths we conform to a reverse of the traditional gender stereotypes? Surely this curtails individual freedoms just as much and is just as oppressive? Surely having to confirm to any stereotype against our will is damaging?

I never say you did think it was more or less feminist.

I am saying that I think your argument is unfeminist because it assumes that women are able to develop such a skill. Even trained psychologists find it hard to identify such people.

It also gives rise to abusers going undetected in institutional settings because a whole load of people who believe they have the 'skill' you are talking about all say that 'x seemed like such a nice man. He would never do something like that.'

The point of this isn't to say that being a SAHM is a safer or more feminist choice. It is that there are multiple ways that women are at risk in society, as feminists we should be honest about those risks, warn women about them, and see how we can socially alleviate them (by which I do not mean more women in paid employment).

What I would like to see is more women (in this instance) understand that whilst their individual choices are theirs to make, that some of those choices aren't feminist choices. I have been a SAHM, and I've changed my name on marriage. I am fully aware that neither of those are feminist choices, and I don't feel the need to be defensive about that. I can also separate my individual choices from women's as a class.

I would also like to see more men tackle their employers about parental leave and flexible working. Even though parental leave is now a thing, it seems very few men, and very few employers, actually want it. Because the current system suits them down to the ground.