What's wrong with being a SAHM?

[Roseandlily]

I am not a feminist (I don't think). I currently earn more than my partner but when our baby is born I will be a stay at home mother. I love the idea of striving to be the best mother, home maker, having the tea on the table for when he gets home stuff. I love the idea of it all. But when I talk to people and they ask "oh what's your plan, how long to you plan to take off work?" And we both say I won't be going back and this will be me at home for say the next 10years give or take.

I would like to add that we would like to have 3 children so I will be at home until the last child starts school.

I don't care about amazing holidays we have done that :) or fancy cars, both had what we wanted and now have got sensible cheaper cars. We are married and have a lovely home.

What do feminists think is so wrong with this? And why do people make me feel weird about this?

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with it except you make yourself financially dependant on another human.

If you break up or they die you will have been out of the workforce for x years.

People can have their names on everything so that come a break up things are split fairly, hopefully. But people may have taken themselves out of a well paying career whilst their partner has forged ahead. Who knows if you can get back in.

The partner may then muck about with maintenance. I have known two women whose partners have gone to work abroad to avoid maintenance. One fought and has sort of managed to get recompense but she is a lawyer so did all the dealing with courts abroad herself, not easy.

How have the relationships panned out of the women I have known from school and college, so 20 + years.

Very variable indeed, some shocks such as my lovely friend who is a nurse practitioner. Her fiancee ran off with one of her work colleagues. All manner of unexpected stuff, deaths, divorces, ill health, emotional abuse and one who has ended up with a cocklodger, Then the good stuff. I think atround 50% of us have ended up with decent long term partners and good financial stability. I suppose that the holy grail of relationships. It's a shocker sometimes how things turn out.

It's protecting yourself that's the key of one of you is earning what happens if they can't or get made redundant or decide to leave

I work so we have a home and food without struggling but also so I know I can always support myself whatever life throws at me

Rose
I rarely post in here, but I lurk and learn. There are many knowledgeable people here who have considered views and seem open to having their views challenged.

You are apparently a woman and are posting in the feminist section. Yet you've opened by stating that you are not a feminist

It astounds me that any woman can declare she is not a feminist.

But I see this a lot from younger women, who have not yet entered the badlands of juggling babies and work and how your identity and societal position changes once you acquire the status of mother.

Pre-mothering women seem to think that they won't be like me. That they won't become haggard and harassed and stridently feminist.

Well, I think I was probably like you once....until I was dealing with non-sleeping children and then getting up to go to work in the morning.

It's tough going.

You've asked what do feminists think is wrong with your plan?
Nothing wrong with it.
But I doubt that it is a plan made with a full understanding of the personal, financial, societal and long-term implications of that decision.

I was previously told on here that feminists don't think woman should work, they think woman should have the right to choose if they work or SAH. I've largely been a SAHM, I enjoy it and think all woman are equally worthy of having their choices respected whether they're working in or out of their home.

I'd agree with helterskelter99

I'm not working so I can look after my DS at the minute. I've protected myself as best I can before I left work and can keep my skills up to date by doing some contracting occasionally.

We don't do the the 50's style housewife thing though. My job is looking after DS, not being a domestic slave, I'd go slowly insane otherwise.

Good luck, OP.

My observation is that the SAHM thing is really only an enjoyable, fulfilling experience if you're shackled to a deeply enlightened man.

One who doesn't take you for granted, one who doesn't expect you to do all the childcare, child raising, home-related slogging and skiving, and all the night time wakes.

Many men are perfectly enlightened when you're both on an even keel, but as you descend into your domestic world, the neanderthal just can't help emerging.

If you have one of the truly enlightened ones, you're good to go.

Assuming you're coming back to the thread.

P.S. Who comes onto the feminist forum and announces they're not a feminist....?

I consider myself a feminist and was a sahm for 25 years.
I'd done the career bit, travelled and it's what I wanted to do above everything else.
I do agree with making yourself financially safe as much as you can.
I had to have equal access to money, my dh refused to go down the housekeeping money route or an allowance.
You both need to be on the same page ito managing finances otherwise resentment could build up, this happened to friends of mine.
I know nobody likes to think they'll break up but it happens and marriage will protect you best.

I am a feminist. I see feminism as the belief in equality between men and women so I do find it hard when people, especially women, proudly proclaim themselves not to be feminists. It does kind of make me ask why you care what feminists think if you are so keen to dissociate yourself from the label?

Anyway. Despite my feminism, I make all kinds of decisions in my day to day life that I would not consider feminist decisions. Compromises with the patriarchal world we live in, taking the path of least resistance, habit. I think that's just being human. I don't need the entirety of world feminism cheering on and validating my every choice.

I don't believe being a sahm is a feminist choice. It offers no challenge to the status quo, it often means you are financially dependent on your husband (who also becomes more tied to his work/providing income), it perpetuates the idea that women are caregivers and men providers. That is not the same as saying it is a bad choice. There are many reasons to become a sahm, and the current world we live in makes this an attractive option for many individual women. I would never presume to tell an individual that she is making the wrong choice for her.

But in large numbers, these decisions contribute to a world where men and women have very different options and outcomes particularly in relation to work and family.

I chose to be a SAHP. I wanted to do this. My DC's in their teens now. My DH is great, I don't feel exploited. I felt more exploited when I worked.

TBH I get pretty sick of this 'dependent' rhetoric. When my DC was small they were dependent on me. Childcare would have been difficult due my DC being assessed, when young, and found to have some 'learning difficulties'. Not that it has held them back, they have overcome them and now are attaining above average. But it wasn't an easy path, there were meetings and assessments and for the first year of primary flexible schools hours. I had to put a lot of input in towards pretty much extra teaching at home. It was worth it but as the SAHP this fell to me to sort out. Picking up my career was the very last thing on my mind. All this time we were somewhat dependent financially on my DH.

I have recently have had a diagnosis of breast cancer. Yep, still dependent and not jus financially this time. And dependent on extended family too.

Does all this mean I can't be a feminist? I hope not. I'm brining up my DC, I can pass on my ideals. I can still contribute. Does the work I do and have done have less meaning because it is not paid?

The dependent rhetoric infuriates me. Having money does not make someone a feminist. Feminism surely is more about outlook and how you view the world and treat others.

On a personal level, if you think it's what you'd like to do then I'm sure you won't regret it.

I'm not sure about that, plenty of people do - you read all about it on MN!
Be aware that what could be a completely freely made choice at the time could be regretted later and resentment could appear.
When I quit working it was my choice, DH supported my decision but it was 100% my choice. If he'd have objected, there would have been issues.
Now, 12 year's later, kids are all at school and I'm stuck wondering what I'm going to do, and wishing I'd kept some career plans going.
I've read on MN that other people start to resent and blame their husbands - they didn't give up their career, did they? But in my case it was my choice so I can't blame him, but there's a little of it there.
Plus, doesn't being a SAHM contribute to the gender pay gap? Going back to work 10 year's later you won't be paid what you would be if you stayed in work 10 years.

Okay, leaving aside the perversity of posting on a feminism board with the opener "I am not a feminist", here's a check list of stuff to make sure you have sewn up properly, financially and legally, before you become a SAHM (since you talk about your partner rather than your husband).

Joint accounts. If he takes the view that his money is now his because he's the earner, walk away from the relationship, do not have children with this man.

In the event of death - make sure he is well insured. Check the value of your house, because the one advantage of marriage which cannot be reproduced in any other way is that you are exempt from inheritance tax on your late spouse's estate. If you live in London/SE, chances are your house, even a very modest house, will take you well over the inheritance threshold. Make sure your insurance takes this into account. Likewise, insure yourself - if you stepped under a bus, he'd have to pay for a nanny, cleaner, etc, or radically downscale his job, earnings potential and lifestyle.

Possible separation - after all, something like 1 in 4 first marriages end in divorce, so although you think your relationship is for ever, the odds suggest that it's a possibility you should take seriously. Make sure the mortgage is in joint names and that you agree to split the proceeds of any sale 50-50 in the event of you separating. Note that it does not matter that after you become a SAHM the payments will come 100% out of his salary. You are in effect saving him the cost of a nanny, cleaner, cook-housekeeper. The assets of the relationship should be tied up legally to be 50-50. If he is not happy with this, again, walk away from the relationship now before you have children.

No doubt others will have more suggestions.

I'm a feminist, a SAHP and a PT student - those things aren't mutually exclusive. But yes, safeguard your own financial independence, if you can. For some this means working, even just one or two days a week to keep career skills ticking over, for others it's managing their savings/investments, and for others it's retraining/changing career direction through study. Always have a Plan B, it's not feminist, it's wise.

And then do whatever suits you and your DH. For my DH, having me at home managing the kids, the home and all the myriad bits that go with that has suited him. He's been free to work long hours, travel for business and go to work social things in the evenings. If I'd been working, even PT, he'd have had to pull his weight at home and that becomes more onerous once DC start school, as nurseries are open 7.30am-6pm 52 weeks a year, schools are not.

The other thing I would say is, have an open mind. We all have these grand ideas when we're pregnant with #1 that we're going to be this or that kind of parent, but reality is a lot different. You may absolutely adore being home with 3 DC under your feet, cooking every day and keeping chickens, but equally you may hate it and be dying to go back to work after six months. And if you fall into that latter camp, it's okay. Not many women these days choose to be 50s style housewives and there is a good reason for that. But if you DO find that sort of life extremely satisfying, that's okay too.

clarity the 'dependent rhetoric' is not a judgement...it's concern. And a warning.

You are fortunate that your marriage has survived and you can depend on your husband. Many women find themselves in your position and then their marriage fails. So they have no-one to depend on and no financial stability/means of their own

I don't think think there's anything wrong or anti-feminist about being a SAHM. I did it myself for a short time (and was very very happy to back to paid work again, but that's me rather than anything inherently bad about the arrangement).

But. I do think that in a sexist society it can be easy to fall into a damaging pattern in your own family about what men do and what women do. And I don't mean "men go out to work and women don't", I mean the childcare gruntwork and basic household maintenance and emotional labour.

You see this all the time on MN. "DH does his hobby four nights a weeks so I do all the bedtimes." "DH works hard all day so he doesn't want to do housework when he gets home, he wants to relax." "Oh I don't let DH do laundry, he can't understand the washing machine," while DH is holding down a six-figure job as a procurement specialist working on incredibly complex contracts. Because of course his time is more valuable than hers, his work is harder than hers, and childcare and housework are simultaneously so easy she doesn't need a break and so taxing he can't be expected to do them.

Some men are admittedly awful and plan this right from the start, but mostly it's not that, it's just men and women falling into this old pattern without realising because it's easier than swimming against the tide. If you're already going into this with expectations that you'll be the perfect mother and home maker with his tea on the table every night, watch out for a time six years down the line when you're knackered and exhausted and bored and resentful.

Painful, it often feels like a judgement. I think it is often meant as one. It is suggestive of me making an unwise choice. I think my choices to support my dc in the way I did were good. They have proved successful. My health issues involved no choices. I am still left dependent. The reality is that people are dependent on each other. Whether dependent on employers, husbands, family, benefits, the health service, people who work for us. We are all dependent.

Feminism to me is more about making sure relationships between the sexes are equal in the sense that they do not involve exploitation or oppression.

Just wondering why you don't think women shd have an equal stab at life as men? (You say you aren't a feminist and this is what. Being a feminist means). Whether you choose to woth or not is not really related to this unless you think women shouldn't be able to work outside the home which I assume you don't believe? Purely a personal decision on what is best for your family is clearly completely up to you!

You may absolutely adore being home with 3 DC under your feet, cooking every day and keeping chickens, but equally you may hate it and be dying to go back to work after six months

Chickens? Where do chickens come into it, FFS? I'm "at home" with my two, although they are now at school, but even when they weren't, we weren't in with them "under my feet" very often. And I'm not sure I've seen a chicken in that time that wasn't in a plastic bag from Waitrose....

I had what would be termed a "serious job" on here; long hours, high status, high pay. And I completely agree with a pp - I felt far more exploited in that scenario than I ever have done bringing up my children. If you're financially secure (now and in the event of a death or break up), what's the problem? Yes, you contribute less to the system in terms of not paying tax yourself and not employing someone else to look after your children who will then pay tax.....but then, equally, arguably I've enabled my DH to pay a lot more tax.

Ultimately, you make your own choice. Yes, you can't go back into a career at the same level ten years later....but in today's fast moving world, who is to say you'd have had that job anyway? Technology is changing many traditional roles and is likely to continue to do so. Equally, you can't work full time for ten years and then decide to have that concentrated time with your children when they are small....because they won't be small any more and their needs will have changed. There is no perfect way of doing things; choose the way which works best for you and your family. Be mindful of the possible downsides, sure - but they are present (in different ways) on both sides of the coin.

Dependence on employers is based on a legal contract and monetary compensation for time/effort/responsibility/skill/knowledge, not faith and trust. And changing employers is an option

Painful, marriage is a legal contract too. And you can divorce and remarry. Some employers are exploitative and unlawful, some husbands are.

If you think employment offers better security than marriage I think you are misguided.

If you can, leave your option to go back to work after your baby is born open for as long as possible. The day to day reality of being a SAHP is hard. It totally knocked my confidence and self esteem - i felt such a failure as 'other people' managed to do all I did and work/still look glamorous/have a lovely house/make uinteresting meals.

i imagined me and my child playing games (fucking hated a tea party) baking (fucking massive mess for something inedible) and arts and crafts, yes great idea in theory but just more mess to clean up. All maybe worse by the fact that I knew other (better) people did all these activities and enjoyed them (double failure for me).

I gave up (another failure) and went back to work, luckily on the same level and similar position.

As in neither offer absolute security.

We cannot have absolute security in life. The best thing, IMO, is to be adaptable and tenacious, as a person. No matter what life throws at you.

watch out for a time six years down the line when you're knackered and exhausted and bored and resentful.

But this applies to working parents just as much, in my experience. They're knackered and exhausted because both parents are out of the house full time and still have to deal with the day to day grind of food, laundry etc etc. Your child hasn't slept well? Your boss doesn't care. Is the school holidays and your kids are at home? Not your boss's problem.

As for bored, well - I, afraid I never found work was the thing that provided my interest and stimulation. Why does being with children equate to being bored? I've learned a huge amount through my children and their interests. I've met a huge range of people who are all quite different from the City types I used to mix with all the time, which has broadened my horizons considerably. I get time to read and deal with projects that interest me. Why would I be bored? I think most people have jobs which are pretty boring - or at least routine - to some extent. That's why you're paid to do them! I think my DH must have it about as good as it gets, but even he isn't exactly bubbling over with enthusiasm about all the thrilling, intellectually stimulating, mind expanding things he's done in the course of a day.

Excellent post Clarity.

However, I think this is one of the ones where OP has thrown a word-bomb and left the building.

I gave up (another failure) and went back to work, luckily on the same level and similar position.

Not a failure, then, Time. You just recognised where your strengths lie. Nothing wrong with that.

There is nothing 'wrong' with your family's choice, and I would never judge another woman for being a SAHP.

However, as others have said, it leaves you wholly financially dependent on a man. And if your plan works out - three children, not going back to work until they're all in school etc - you will have significantly dented your earning potential and pension, and may fns it hard to ic u your career where you left off.

I say this as someone who was a SAHP for a few years. I don't regret it (slightly complicated in my case by the fact that one of my children has SN and I felt I needed to dedicate some time to getting the right diagnosis and support in pace for him), but it has affected my career and I have had to work very hard and do significant re-training to claw it back.

I was quite defensive about my position as a SAHP at the time and remember feeing really out out when others (particularly my own Mum!) gave their opinions on the vulnerable position it leaves women in. In hindsight, they were right.