Why do men use prostitutes?

[QuentinSummers]

Guardian have published a summary of a research project here
www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes
Men were asked what would put them off. A criminal record, an ASBO or their employer being told was the answer. Finding out the woman was pimped or coerced apparently not so much.
Not sure how that squares with the full decriminalisation model.

I am sure you have. The "I have seen it all, I already know you" is a great attitude, isn't it?

Knowing what forms of whataboutery are likely to come up on perennial threads does help to weed out who's posts are worth reading, yes. Yours was just a rehash of the "women elsewhere have it much worse" thing, reasonably original, but nothing out of the common way. You still fell back on comparing women to handbags and shoes and to suggesting that prostituted women are different to "real" women, which is common enough as well.

My argument never was "women have it elsewhere much worse". But I guess actually reading what evil men have to write is out of the question for you.

If you think I compared women to handbags (rather than the poor humans who have to make them) you have just admitted to not reading all my comments and not understood the ones you did read.

No wonder you know what men on here will write, if you actually never bother reading them properly but stick to your preset view of them

And then you have the audacity to accuse me of that very thing you do, not fully reading posts / ignoring stuff I don't like. That is probably the lowest form of debate you can have. You know who is awesome at that? The Donald.

I think you objesticles are not as evenly balanced as you might think. I've been posting here for many years, am a man and I don't identify as a feminist nor sycophantically suck up to women just because, and I don't feel not listened to here. In fact in the past I have felt a fair few women here have been supportive and fair minded.

Your first mistake is engaging with an axe to grind. Dealing with misogyny on a daily basis must be one hell of a grind. Posting without some cognizance of that is an error, and no reading a few comments analyzing men as a class (as that's what's going on here, this isn't a personal attack on me or you), isn't the same as the day to day shit a lot of women have to wade through. It's a false equivalence both you and I can put our smartphones down, or turn of our computers and walk out into a world more molded to our preferences.

When you come in just read the room a little first!

That article is yuk, I want to say shocking but it's not, really.. it's fairly biased though. 'Darren' is awful- "if she gets pleasure he'll feel cheated" 🤢ugh🤢ugh🤢ugh.. but.. they will have picked the most extreme and emotive quotes from just 100 interviews. The whole survey is only around 700, from 6 countries, which must be such a tiny percentage of the total, and there's no hint of how they got their participants or anything like that to put it into perspective..

Surely not every man who pays for sex wants to exploit or abuse the woman, and particularly I think it's unfair to say they hate women. I suspect some haven't time to maintain a relationship but seek some kind of intimacy, of course none of it is 'real' but as long as it is consensual (which it should be, because money changes hands for time spent not services offered?) how is playing out a fantasy so offensive? People like to escape from the stress and banality of reality sometimes, whether that's through alcohol/drug use or gaming or reading or social media or whatever.. admittedly some escapes are healthier than others.
Some men want to pay to be abused in various different ways, or like the first example in the article they hope for something more meaningful than just the transaction, surely then they are more exploited by it than the woman?
What about the men who have a strange fetish that they're too embarrassed to share in their real life but need a way to explore it?
Of course, it should go without saying; as long as nobody is hurt in the process. I can't imagine those people would be very keen to volunteer for a survey?

Obviously I agree that trafficking is obscene and anybody who specifically chooses an escort because they think she is in such a situation is beyond abhorrent but I do think this paints a very grim picture of a certain side of the industry which shouldn't be tolerated. I don't, however, think there's anything wrong with adults agreeing to sex for money.. but it's always complicated and perhaps I'm being naïve 🤗

Whether or not women have reason to be upset should have no bearing on the veracity of their logical arguments.

I appreciate your advice and mostly agree with it, but I do want to point that multiple other users managed to engage and put forward good points and put thought (i.e. effort) into their replies. What makes this particular user special? Moreover I don't believe I was particularly hostile, I questioned two lines of thought ("men hate women" and "it is a male on female issue"). If she is 100% convinced they are right, fine, she does not have to comment, but snarky side comments and blanket stereotypical accusations are really not necessary, are they?

It IS a male/female issue. It is overwhelmingly women that are exploited into prostitution, it is women that are in danger. It is women that are trafficked and sold for sex.

You can't seriously suggest that men are exploited in the same way.

Many men do hate women though. Misogyny isn't rare. It's something that many women encounter quite regularly.

Feminism is about women. About what happens to women. Not what happens to men.

You can equate misogyny to all sorts of things, like sweatshops, but misogyny is a specifically feminist issue.

Meanwhile I will still campaign to have UK prostitution placed firmly in the Nordic model and criminalise punters.

Especially as the article confirmed that public opprobrium is an effective deterrent.

Same way, lesser scale due to lesser demand. (Maybe you should look into the plight of for example trafficked young boys, particularly in the US).

And we are back to the issue, is that demand coming from "men hate women". And all I am saying is that no, most demand is not stemming from that. Certainly not all, like some people's posts on here suggest.

Well, MrGHardy, we shall have to agree to disagree.

Very well.

I will really leave it here now then for sure.

But other than people on here, no one will buy the "in that survey some men admit to hating women so now all men hate women" or "i have seen it all so i don't need to hear what you have to say". Those are argument styles that will not be respected, be it about feminism or any other topic.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread but just wanted to chip in.

My EXH slept with prostitutes over the course of our marriage. The first one I knew about was 6 weeks before our marriage. His reason - one last fling!

Didn't stop him though, he continued to do it. Doesn't hate women, supposedly didn't hate me, but all the excuses came out of me not wanting sex enough, him feeling depressed, I was away etc etc. He'd never go to a local one though, always one 20 or 30 miles away, maybe through fear of being seen???

He slept with one prostitute the day after we split up. Wasn't my business but he'd had the cheek to use my iPad and Sat Nav! I'd stripped the bed after I found out and he asked me why as I'd only changed them two days before. I told him I knew and that I thought it was disgusting and that I wasn't going to sleep in a bed with the scent of the woman he'd slept with. (He didn't shower when he came home after doing the deed). His response, a honest one, was, I'm not going to lie, I enjoyed it.

I'm not sure it's relevant but his dad cheated on his mum.

From my perspective EXH saw/sees women as objects and it's the act and never the emotion behind it. It's a fantasy, release, easy lay etc without any strings attached. He was also an avid porn watching and often the perverse kind.

How hard for you Chuff.
Are you in a relationship now, out of interest?

That's awful chuff. I'm so glad he's your ex now.

Interesting how he went out of town though. Public disapproval is obviously something that does matter to these men. Which means they know full well how prostitution is viewed by most people.

I'm glad you're out of it.

What about the men who have a strange fetish that they're too embarrassed to share in their real life but need a way to explore it?
Exploring a strange fetish is not a "need" and if they can't find someone to explore that fetishism consensually maybe they should forgo it.
Seriously. Men have murder fetishes, choking fetishes, child abuse fetishes and we don't call exploration of those a "need" we call it a crime.

Then why hatred - that's a very strong word. I can see some men not having any respect for prostitutes, but hatred, really ?

Oh, it is not really hatred, as to truly hate someone, you must consider them human and have some respect for them, in the first place.

They just see women as objects. That's actually worse than hate.

People who eat meat don't hate animals. Not even people who buy the liver of geese that were tortured to death for the exact purpose to make their liver taste better hate animals.
They just consider them objects.

So, yeah, it is not hate, you are right about that. It is something much worse than hate.

We just usually don't bother differentiating between "hate" and "consider an object" because the effects are about the same, so in the end, it doesn't really matter.

Hi @londonista

Yep, I'm in a very happy relationship now. I always knew I'd break away from me ex, but it took me a very long time to do.

The plus for me, apart from getting shot of him, was that I knew exactly what I would and wouldn't put up with in my next relationship. I would have happily stayed single rather than making that mistake again.

Thanks @chuff, me too!

I agree that public disapproval matters to these men. I'm wondering whether when blokes are together whether it's something that's ever discussed or if it's seen as a 'dirty secret'?

Exploring a strange fetish is not a "need" and if they can't find someone to explore that fetishism consensually maybe they should forgo it.

OK but I did say as long as nobody is getting hurt and it was consensual. And there's lots of things in life that we do just for fun that we don't need.

And I totally agree that if someone admitted to having a murder/child abuse 'fetish' then they need psychological help not a way to explore it...

I think of the two kinds of men who use prostitutes single men feel shame at their inability to attract a woman, and married/attached men obviously want to keep it quiet.

Closest I've ever gotten is driving around London my own father pointed at some fancy looking building and said that's where all the high price escorts are. Needless to say I shut that down pretty fucking quickly. He's not mentioned anything since!

So no I don't think it requires much social pressure. I think they all know they are on thin ice ethically speaking.

@xxHappyHippyxx, you're of the opinion that paid-for consent is true enthusiastic positive consent?

In this day and age, any man with an unusual fetish can surely find an online home full of similar enthusiasts and find someone to explore their fetish with. If they can't persuade anyone to do so, well, I'm afraid that's tough luck and you shouldn't have the right to buy someone's consent.

@AssassinatedBeauty yeah, I'm saying it could be, it should be up to any adult what their own boundaries are re what they're willing to do for money; I'm not suggesting she's going to be 'enthusiastic' about every client she entertains but anyone in a customer service role has to deal with people they might not give the same consideration to in their personal time.

I think putting the blame on punters for meeting trafficked victims would only make them less likely to report, and makes the pimp/trafficker/real criminal less likely to ever get punished. The examples of men in the article who actively prefer underage and exploited women are a problem, but I just can't bring myself to believe that's the majority for the sake of my sanity and OK maybe I'm too idealistic.

And as for fetishes, yeah, I suppose you probably can find like-minded people online which then has the added bonus of being cheaper but I still can't see a problem with a woman deciding she wants to get paid to take part in whatever it is, once again, as long as it's not hurting other people and she can still say no at any point. She is then in the position of power as she has the thing that he wants..

xxHappyHippyxx

Have you read this article? All but one of the women photographed is now dead.

“What I had not expected was their pain. But their ordeals are not unique to Mexico. I’ve been to India and live in the U.S. — the lives of prostituted women are the same around the world.”

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_597ba182e4b09982b7376482

xxHappyHippyxx wrote - "I still can't see a problem with a woman deciding she wants to get paid to take part in whatever it is, once again, as long as it's not hurting other people and she can still say no at any point. She is then in the position of power as she has the thing that he wants."

What if she has no money? He has money and wants sex. She refuses sex. He goes elsewhere for sex. She still has no money. And she supposedly has the power?

I am sorry but how is that different to any other job vesuvia? Or are you saying there literally is no other job for said woman available? I find that hard to believe. And if not, even then, it wouldn't be like she's the only unemployed.