Why do men use prostitutes?

[QuentinSummers]

Guardian have published a summary of a research project here
www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes
Men were asked what would put them off. A criminal record, an ASBO or their employer being told was the answer. Finding out the woman was pimped or coerced apparently not so much.
Not sure how that squares with the full decriminalisation model.

Look, men pay for women because he can have whatever and whoever he wants. Lots of men go to prostitutes so they can do things to them that real women would not put up with."

... or why many women have every reason to believe that men hate them. Because they're not 'real'.

The fact that this is usually men attempting to explain women's experience, to a woman, says everything.

Do men do this just to women or other men, too? From my experience, that is what men do, regardless of gender. Heck, I love to do it on internet forums and often you don't even know the gender of the other person (although assuming the gender avatars are 100% correct, it would even be more men than women).

... or why many women have every reason to believe that men hate them. Because they're not 'real'.

In that case the prostitutes weren't 'real', not women as a whole.

Anyway, my point is hate suggests an active desire to see them hurt.

What I am saying it's more of a disrespect/apathy towards them (which imo stems from society, I mean just look at how women are portrayed, even female heroines like, well I don't know what you think about her but my FB feed from old female class mates sure idolizes her, Beyonce utilize "sex sells" up) which results in the same kind of indifference and blinding out of the plight suffered by them as we have towards other things in our life that I mentioned above.

Otherwise the answer to the survey should have been something like "because they get off on degrading women" (and inb4 some do, well so what, you're trying to combat stereotyping women into sex objects by stereotyping men and it's akin to arguing "why did people vote Brexit - because they're stupid"). But no, the answer was "because they can" and why do people buy sneakers made from tiny children's hands? Because they can.

In that case the prostitutes weren't 'real', not women as a whole.

Jesus. Prostitutes are women. They are no different, at all, from any other woman.

I'm not sure what point you're making, to be honest. Are you saying men degrade women because society tells them to?

Because that's not something I would disagree with.

Men's socialisation has got a massive amount to do with their attitudes to women.

And in terms of equating hate with an active desire to hurt, being a prostitute is the most dangerous job a woman can do. What other jobs do you know that require a panic button?

Lots of men go to prostitutes so they can do things to them that real women would not put up with

I've seen this belief a lot and it's always really jarring to me that people honestly don't see that what this is saying is that the person saying it doesn't regard prostituted women as real

We're cross posting a lot today Datun!

Mrghardy I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. So men don't use prostitutes because they hate women. They use them because they have no respect, care less about women and see them as subhuman.

What's the difference then really?

I don't know about "tells them to" but I suppose it's a phrase one can use, yes. In particular porn has an impact here but I think that is another can of worms that we don't need to open here.

But is that because every single John is dangerous or because some are dangerous and repeat offenders? Not every one of them tries strangling their prostitute a bit, gets a kick and starts going around choking and beating them, killing them.

Have you seen that one movie (based on a true story), where the guy drives a truck and there's two Mexican girls in the back and he is driving them to be prostituted off. At first he was indifferent and only because he fell in love with the girl did he do something. In hindsight, he looks fantastic, having created a women's shelter too, but if you really just coldly analyze it, he was gonna just do nothing, which is what humans always do. That is why those that do do, are often remembered as heroes.

I still don't know what point you're making. Are you saying that some men are worse than others? Because I agree with that. NAMALT and all that.

moomoos do humans hate animals? Do they hate people in Asia producing their cheap products? Since when does the dictionary say hate means disrespect and indifference?

In addition, it would be interesting and telling for this debate to see the figures of homosexual men and gay male prostitutes. Of course the rate will be lower as as a guy wanting to fuck another guy it will be easier to hook up without paying than a guy trying to hook up with a girl, but if you could find a way to account for this. And the relative danger of working as a gay male prostitute and a female prostitute would be very telling. Of course if they live a much safer life than female ones, then I would concede that you are right, but I don't think they do, in which case you wouldn't be right. From a quick google it is supposedly "somewhat lower" level of violence, which if you factor in that men may be less able to be violent towards other males than to females, could mean there is no significant difference between potential for violence towards female and male prostitutes. So I ask you again, is it because humans, and in particular men, are just terrible in general, or do you maintain it's because "men hate women"?

Porn is inextricably linked to prostitution because both involve the sexual exploitation of women, by men for money.

Ok MrGHardy it is a very simple, but terribly viscous cycle. Society objectifies women in two major but related ways, as sex objects and as mothers. Both forms of objectification confers an intrinsic value on women (as objects). Men go on to resent the intrinsic value women as objects possess, leading them to hate them (misogyny).

Women resent being objects as objects have no agency or at least less agency relative to men, men resent the intrinsic object value of women as although men have more agency if they fail to make anything of themselves that agency is viewed as unfair responsibility on males that women are free from. Not comprehending a gilded cage is still a cage.

Shuffle in race, class and economics to obsfucate these fundamental imbalances. Throw in a few high flying women to make it look like you've solved the problem when you haven't, and we're now arguing haven't we got there? Women have the vote, Thatcher, May yadda yadda.

Prostitution only exists thanks to the relative wealth inequality between men and women. Fewer women would do it if they had more agency, but we all collude to keep women down thus ensuring a continual supply of desperate women, and if the native women start doing comparably better we can ship more in from abroad thanks to globalism.

I don't think anyone is disputing that...

Firstly, please don't try to on any level compare 'women' to 'animals'.

Secondly, this subject isn't about the entire UK population buying cheap goods, that may or may not be made in other countries in sweat shops, by people we don't see, hear and touch.

As I said before, men using prostitutes is a male on female problem.'

Men are in fact usually more violent towards other men and we're socialised to respond to stress with aggression, I'm not sure of the exact breakdown of violence towards male/female prostitues, but it does happen. I recall a case where Boy George chained up a male escort to a radiator and abused him so it does happen.

I'm not convinced any difference is particularly revealing though.

Dervel Well of course it is revealing - if men really just hated women and that's the reason then the rate of violence towards female prostitutes would be significantly higher.

moomoos You did say it before. Doesn't make it any more true if you repeat it. And yes, in that moment when they touch them, the men don't see the woman being exploited, they see her how she wants them to see her. And that is not in a bad way. And what about men using male prostitutes? Is that a male on male problem?

the men don't see the woman being exploited, they see her how she wants them to see her.

Of course they know they are exploiting her. It's often part of the arousal. Seriously, go onto the websites. They freely admit, in the link, that they suspect the girls have been trafficked. These men get caught up in such a mindset that they look at women everywhere as potential prostitutes. They rate supermarket checkout girls based on what they might be able to do to her in a transactional situation. Grannies, mothers, everyone.

They absolutely hate them. It's indisputable.

The fact that a small number of men might get caught up in that hate, is not the purpose of feminism.

Nevertheless, statistically male prostitutes are at a lower risk of violence than female.

Prostitution is aided and abetted by the cultural and media lead objectification of women. Which includes giving men the sense of entitlement needed to access prostitution.

And yes, disrespect and indifference can quickly turn to hate. Usually as the result of a minor push back.

I don't know why you don't know that.

I think you falling into the trap of not calling things by their proper names. Use the word misogyny rather than hate as it encompasses a spectrum of behavior which whilst it may include hate, it also can include but not limited to contempt, disrespect and many other things.

You would also have to include other behavior like whipping off condoms, pushing boundaries and a myriad of other behaviors prostitutes have to contend with. It's also worth pointing out that data relating to prostitution is invariably going to be incomplete, as it's a taboo activity.

What we can define as fact is the societal place we position these women. The language surrounding prostitues is synonymous with insults and degradation. Whore is an insult of which I'm struggling to find a male equivalent for.

My husband recently tried to prepare me for just how sexually charged the life of a teenage / young adult male is. Being taught how to balance these dawning and often overwhelming physical feelings needs to be an essential part of every boy's upbringing.

For example, we discussed differences between a casual fuck and masturbation, of it's all about a physical release, and he explained how consumed he was as a teenager by the female form, every aspect of it - not just genitalia.

It was an eye opening, very frank discussion. Lots of work to do to make sure my boys understand consent and to not let their desires overtake common sense and consideration - i.e. not "going along with things" that they know to be morally wrong. And paying £10 for a BJ from a drug addict is morally wrong, there's no 2 ways about it.

Btw the objectification of young women is just as bad as ever isn't it - did anyone see today's article about some casual "upskirting" at a festival that the victim decided to stand up to?

The attitudes of some people to it (ie you were wearing underwear whats the big deal, and boys will be boys etc) is shocking.

MrGHardy, I know you're studiously avoiding comments you don't like, but google the invisible men project and have a little look at what men think about the women they pay to rape. You may already be aware of p*nternet which is where the quotes come from, but it's an eye opener seeing women rated, like meat.

Dervel Yes, I agree, misogyny would be far more appropriate (not that that makes it any "better", just more accurate). And yes, I always try to avoid using the word bitch for that very reason, it's really a highly sexist term.

Datun Are you extrapolating the forum posts of some men to all men who use prostitutes? I can equally tell my knowledge about this, here in Switzerland there is an extensive sex industry and such forums exist, too, and on those the men generally are the opposite. In fact, earlier it was that prostitution "takes away the female orgasms, it's all about men", where for them often the key criteria for recommending a girl is whether or not she enjoys her job (whether or not she actually does is irrelevant to the argument, they want to believe she does, which counters the point that they don't care or even want to degrade them).

I never said men like you describe don't exist (or worse, remember that Reddit about rapists and the chilling accounts of them), just that the blanket statement "because they hate men" is not true and doesn't help much in this debate. Anyway, I think I will leave it at that.

Xenophile I am not, there are simply a lot of different debates going on and I may overlook some. Which one(s) in particular did you have in mind?

No, it's all the same debate, you're merely choosing which bits you find most convenient to your points. It's cool, we've had lots of men like you commenting on threads like this over the years.