I'm so cross

[Yolandafarthing]

Just need somewhere to vent. My local parent's Facebook group had a post from a woman complaining she has hardly any help from her husband WRT housework/childcare and asking if others struggle too. Cue loads of other women commiserating.

Then the bloody admin shuts the comments on the thread down, because "it feels pretty negative to men, and I know that many of us have fantastic, pro-active and supportive partners, many of whom go to work as well as parent, and some of us are two Dad or two Mum families. If you swap the word 'man' for other descriptors like ethnicity or religion, it becomes clear that sweeping statements are unfair and inaccurate....I don't want [group name] to be a place where we perpetuate sexist stereotypes."

I'm fuming. This is a woman speaking. A woman silencing other women, because poor men.

Thoughts?

How do you even live with yourself, being so uneducated? - come on, let's keep it a reasonable debate. No need for slinging insults

because they used to have laws, that mean that women are still socialised into servitude.

so there isn't any current law, is there. Thankfully, women are NOT socialised into servitude, women are NOT being oppressed. It's such a shame people like you try to enforce stereotype and create a problem when there is none. It's such a shame you try to spread the message that women are weak victims that will always suffer. You really should be ashamed of yourself for doing so. It's embarrassing.

I believe that to be speaking about mean 'as a class' is a massive generalisation and not something I see as a positive thing, regardless of gender. I don't like it when people do it about women either.

Well we'll agree to disagree then, as I don't see how we can progress women's rights without speaking about men as a class.

Otherwise all that happens is you get people saying "well my husband/son/brother/father" isn't like that.

I'm willing to bet that even your husband/son/brother/father has got misogynistic tendencies on some level. It's insiduous. I say that as a heterosexual female, with a son, a male partner and a brother, all of whom I love very much.

Misogyny is on a spectrum. The little things do count, very much.

It's such a shame people like you try to enforce stereotype and create a problem when there is none.

Can you direct me to the place where you live where one in four women are not victims of domestic violence, where women are paid the same as men, where street harassment is a crime, and where young girls are not subjected to FGM?

It sounds lovely.

I find it really odd when people take class analysis personally.

If someone says to me "Black people face structural inequality that you, a white person, do not face" - my answer is to say "Yes. You do face that inequality and I don't", and I take it on the chin. It's not about me personally. I don't take the huff that they're being mean to me then tell them that Barack Obama disproves their point? And I certainly don't tell that it's something they choose to have happen. Baffling.

By not paying me enough to be able to pay a flight. By FUCKING INVADING EVERY WOMEN's SPACE. How do you even live with yourself, being so uneducated?

Michfest. Google it. You are on the internet. FUCKING EDUCATE YOURSELF.

And this is why I have no respect for you or your opinion.

How do you suggest we address the issue of male violence if we don't talk about it as a male issue. I have 2 sons, in order for them to grow up safely I would like people to be able to address this issue.

It is a shame there are so many handmaidens of patriarchy out there, even on mumsnet.

I think it's such a shame that so many people are unwilling, or perhaps unable, to have a reasonable discussion on this forum without the 'FUCKING EDUCATE YOURSELF' insults.

I'm not sure why some find it so difficult to communicate in an educated, reasoned manner and try to talk about the issues, and they are very important issues which affect every one of us, to see if they can give someone else information that they may find useful or thought provoking. I've often read things on these boards which have made me think, or consider my position on a subject, but it's only really possible (IMO) if that information is delivered in a reasonable way.

I have to say, that seems like a real pity to have moved it. Irritating though some posts are, surely it's better not to have this debate in an echo chamber?

I agree, but i bet the OP is relieved

Genuine question to the doubters of any power differential between men and women in modern western societies: Do you generally believe that where there is disadvantage, that the disadvantaged people must have brought it on themselves? For example: disabled people, gay and lesbian people, BAME people?

Or is it just when it comes to women that such disadvantage can be described as "weakness" and "playing the victim?"

I think it's such a shame that so many people are unwilling, or perhaps unable, to have a reasonable discussion on this forum without the 'FUCKING EDUCATE YOURSELF' insults.

Plenty of posters on this thread are, myself included.

Why not engage with them?

I agree, but i bet the OP is relieved

I wasn't trying to have a debate really - I just wanted a vent :)

Misogyny is on a spectrum. The little things do count, very much.

Absolutely agree Yolanda

I'm willing to bet that even your husband/son/brother/father has got misogynistic tendencies on some level. It's insiduous. I say that as a heterosexual female, with a son, a male partner and a brother, all of whom I love very much.

With respect, I really don't know how you can say this about my family, I wouldn't dream of assuming anything of yours. DH was raised in a feminist environment and would describe himself as a feminist through and through. However, perhaps he does have misogynistic tendencies in there somewhere that I'm not aware of, but in all honesty, I've never seen a hint of it.

Why not engage with them?

I thought I was?

you're on the internet.You have full access to any airlines booking system.So how exactly are those nasty "oppressors" stopping you from leaving?

Mate, women can't even have their own toilet or changing room without men wanting in it. You think we'd be allowed an island??!?

Agree with gin

The irony when on another thread a woman was yelled at for trying to insist that a man leave a toilet and complain to management

By not paying me enough to be able to pay a flight. By FUCKING INVADING EVERY WOMEN's SPACE. How do you even live with yourself, being so uneducated. Michfest. Google it. You are on the internet. FUCKING EDUCATE YOURSELF

Give that you're not paid enough to even afford a flight, I'd say it's really not me who needs to "FUCKING EDUCATE YOURSELF" Maybe if you knuckled down and took your own advice you might be able to get a better job?

Nah fuck it, it's all the fault of the patriarchy

Have you looked up michfest yet freddy ?

I'm going with no

Often where men are oppressed, women dismiss it.

I think this is where some of the trouble lies. Men may be discriminated against, as much as anyone else, on an individual basis, but they're not oppressed.

Oppression can only happen on a structural class basis.

It's identifiable and verifiable through statistics.

For instance, Barack Obama being one of the most powerful men in the world did not stop black people being oppressed.

Women do often do more housework and take on the 'mental load'. Men are more likely to die or be injured at work as they tend to be the ones working the shitty, dangerous jobs. I rarely hear third wave feminists talking about that bit of inequality. Or the fact that girls tend to do better at school, are more likely to go to uni, and more likely to do better than their male peers when they are there.

It's almost like we're all human beings and that inequality between the sexes affects both men and women in different ways

It's hard to take internet feminism seriously when it's so blatantly not about equality and actually about beating men/giving them a taste of their own medicine/holding all men accountable for the historical sins of their father's fathers and hating them if they don't feel guilty enough for this.

holding all men accountable for the historical sins of their father's fathers

Do you really think that these historical sins aren't still happening?

And I am always very suspicious of any man who declares himself a feminist. They can be feminist allies, certainly. But feminists? No. I don't think you can be a feminist unless you have lived experience of being female.

However, perhaps he does have misogynistic tendencies in there somewhere that I'm not aware of, but in all honesty, I've never seen a hint of it.

I'm willing to believe this is true, but this still does not mean that he is not part of a class which oppresses women. He is. He may not like it, you may not like it, but he is.

It's hard to take internet feminism seriously when it's so blatantly not about equality and actually about beating men/giving them a taste of their own medicine/holding all men accountable for the historical sins of their father's fathers and hating them if they don't feel guilty enough for this.

Yes, not wanting to be harassed on the street or subject to sexual violence simply for being female is exactly that.

Women do often do more housework and take on the 'mental load'. Men are more likely to die or be injured at work as they tend to be the ones working the shitty, dangerous jobs.

Not really. More women die in prostitution. That comes under the heading of shitty jobs.

Migrants (refugees) have no power and face violence and death. They are in a position of zero power. Men are....literally the opposite of that

Except for all the male migrants (refugees).