I'm so cross

[Yolandafarthing]

Just need somewhere to vent. My local parent's Facebook group had a post from a woman complaining she has hardly any help from her husband WRT housework/childcare and asking if others struggle too. Cue loads of other women commiserating.

Then the bloody admin shuts the comments on the thread down, because "it feels pretty negative to men, and I know that many of us have fantastic, pro-active and supportive partners, many of whom go to work as well as parent, and some of us are two Dad or two Mum families. If you swap the word 'man' for other descriptors like ethnicity or religion, it becomes clear that sweeping statements are unfair and inaccurate....I don't want [group name] to be a place where we perpetuate sexist stereotypes."

I'm fuming. This is a woman speaking. A woman silencing other women, because poor men.

Thoughts?

And I am always very suspicious of any man who declares himself a feminist.

Really? I think that's a real shame.

But why should women have to stop being concerned about the patriarchy because men can suffer under it to? Are women responsible for men dying the in the MissBax mentions? No, by and large not. If men suffer at the hands of other men then they need to organise and get active, and I'm sure plenty of feminists would be their allies. But why should feminists stop activating on behalf of women?

coddi do you really and truly think that women as a class aren't socialised into servitude? You think that all the women bearing the brunt of house and family related work just upped and chose one morning to take that burden on? In a bubble, in no social context at all? And that men just upped and decided not to take it on, in a bubble and no social context?

Why is being an ally a shame, Wilbur? Do you think white people should centre themselves within black activism, or do you think that being an ally is perfectly worthy, as it's impossible for a white person to have suffered the oppression a black person does?

Really? I think that's a real shame.

I have explained why I think they can be allies but not feminists. River has put it better than me.

If men suffer at the hands of other men then they need to organise and get active, and I'm sure plenty of feminists would be their allies

Also this x1000000000

I don't believe that being an ally is a shame River, perhaps my post wasn't very clear. I think it's a shame to be 'suspicious' of someone else for declaring themselves a feminist.

I think the biggest problem here is ultimately that people can't get past a 'them and us' mentality. That goes for society as a whole, I'm not talking about the people on this thread in particular.

It's normally a cynicism born of experience, wilbur. Most feminists have been burned at one time or another by someone who declares himself a male feminist who turns out to either drop the ideals at the first sign of challenge, derail progress by constant NAMALTing, or just doing it to get laid.

I can count the number of genuinely egalitarian men I know on one hand. And I know and generally like a lot of men, in case you took that as meaning I am a bitter old harridan who lives in a shoe and throws rocks at harmless blokes

Anyway, is anyone up for responding to my query about whether all groups who find themselves on the wrong side of a structure of oppression bring it on themselves, or if it's just women?

Do you pop into threads where someone has been told to shut up about casual racism and tell them that they need to stop being mean about white people and then racism won't happen? If not, why not?

in case you took that as meaning I am a bitter old harridan who lives in a shoe and throws rocks at harmless blokes grin

No, not at all! I do know what you mean, I am 'lucky' enough to work with one such charming fellow, but I've come to the conclusion that he's just an arsehole anyway and I challenge him every step of the way. I just don't think it's fair to generalise and after being with DH for twenty years, I think his facade may have slipped by now if it were the case for him.

From what the OP said, I cannot understand why the Facebook discussion was closed down. People should be able to discuss their lived experiences. Take it further, does that mean no one can talk about abuse because men or groups of men or a specific sector of the community committed it? How then can we protect vulnerable groups, like for example, those girls who were the victims of the Paedophile ring in Rotherham?

Regarding feminism and equality, I do think things have moved on. There is not so much inequality as there was in Victorian times or in the 60s, for example. However there is still a way to go before true equality is achieved.

Gender stereotyping still very much exists and seems to be strengthening as shown by the amount of people who are dissatisfied with the sex they are born with, due to the gender perceptions associated with each sex. Would there be a need for gender realignment, if gender perceptions were totally inclusive of how every person of each sex felt, about how they want to present themselves in society?

Inequality between the sexes still exists with unequal pay and as stated upthread inheriterence.

Women are still oppressed shown by domestic abuse statistics as example.

However I can see how inequality can perpetuate inequality. If men, as a group, are portrayed as somehow biologically compelled to oppress women then this minimises their responsibility. Equality and freedom from oppression can be seen as too big a task.

But we have come a long way and culture does have a very strong influence upon gender, as can be shown by different gender perceptions across different societies. We all should be working on those perceptions to make them more inclusive and less oppressive IMO.

I think the biggest problem here is ultimately that people can't get past a 'them and us' mentality.

This is the truest thing said in the whole thread. Race, religion, gender, politics, sex or whatever differentiates us in the end we are all human and share more than divides us.

For me the suspicion is that a man, however empathetic or sympathetic, has no idea what being a woman is like, but they don't like being told that, and also a suspicion that a man has to centre himself regardless. Men's reaction when they are told they can't be a feminist - they're not used to being told they can't be something and aren't used to women not accepting whatever crumbs men throw them.

Take Justin Trudeau, for example, always banging on about what a feminist he is, but he doesn't actually appear to know what a woman is. Ditto Mark Ruffallo.

I also have a DH who would put many husbands on MN to shame. But I'm also capable of putting my own experience to one side to look at the bigger picture.

I'm a feminist. I'm for equality.

If they were sweeping generalisations then I would also be offended by this in behalf of my DP. Saying that 'all men' are a certain way in relation to household tasks is both unfair and holds back equality for women.

While men are seen, and can hide behind, the perception that they are simply not as capable around the home as women we'll struggle to get equality IMO.

I also think it hurts the cause beyond measure to be seen as 'man haters' by making sweeping generalisations about men.

I do feel that the admin could have dealt with it in a better way though...perhaps a reminder to stick to specifics rather than generalising about 'all men'.

Not least because if the authors of the posts start to accept that all men are the same way they will be less motivated to kick their own DPs into touch as they think they'll have it no better with anyone else.

I find it deeply depressing that on a forum almost exclusively used by women, "feminism" is a little niche section tucked away in a corner.

While men are seen, and can hide behind, the perception that they are simply not as capable around the home as women we'll struggle to get equality IMO

Sorry but you have completely missed the point.

In what way have I missed the point OP?

Yolanda, I think the point you quoted, here:

While men are seen, and can hide behind, the perception that they are simply not as capable around the home as women we'll struggle to get equality

is valid. If the perception is that men are somehow biologically less capable their responsibility is minimised. This strengthens gender stereotypes.

However I'm very much with you, in that there needs to be a platform to discuss real lived experiences of oppression and abuse. Otherwise we cannot protect the vulnerable.

Balancing these two sometimes conflicting factors is key. We need to be focussing on changing our culture so gender perceptions are more inclusive and in this way making sure oppression and abuse cannot be minimised.

I was in no way saying it was a thread of women saying men are not capable round the house and that this was acceptable. It was a thread of women complaining they were expected to take on the majority of the load. This included single mothers with useless exes.

Some of the replies were in the vein of "oh well men are just rubbish at cleaning", yes, but that's not what this post is about. It's about the admin of that group shutting down the thread on the basis that it was too negative about poor old men and was "man bashing".

Balancing these two sometimes conflicting factors is key. We need to be focussing on changing our culture so gender perceptions are more inclusive and in this way making sure oppression and abuse cannot be minimised.

Just to clarify. Do you mean making gender roles more sex neutral, which will highlight oppression based on biology, rather than stereotypes of, say women aren't good at physics, and what did she expect, wearing that short skirt?

So all people, men and women, wear short skirts (or no-one does), and when women are still raped, you can't blame stereotypes or gender roles?

Which comes first in the chicken and egg? We want to rape them which makes them second class citizens, or they are second class citizens so we can now rape them?

Not disagreeing with anything, just interested.

Datun, well yes, if gender roles were completely neutral and there was still a marked difference in the ways he sexes behave, I would expect it would come down to biology. However I don't think I know of a society which is completely gender neutral. I can acknowledge differing biology can and does affect behaviour, the link found between aggression and testosterone levels for example. However not all men commit crimes or are equally oppressive so these characteristics are by no means a pre-requisite of the male sex.

And added to this the fact that persistent patterns of behaviour can change actual brain physiology then ideas of chicken and egg become even more relevant.

I'm not a man.

Of course there is still inequality but not nearly the level it has been in the past. Thanks in the main to feminists fighting to be seen as equal as opposed to victims who need cosseting and protecting, which seems to be the way feminism is headed these days.

This is a great article about changes in women's status in the UK over the years. Worth fully reading, not just reading a paragraph and getting the keyboard out.
areomagazine.com/2017/07/10/how-to-tell-if-youre-living-in-a-patriarchy-a-historical-perspective/amp/

The prostitution point is stupid. It doesn't change the fact that men overwhelmingly work the most dangerous but necessary jobs and die or are injured more often as a result. Saying this doesn't negate the negative experiences women continue to suffer within society, it's simply pointing out that men are not a homogenous group out there always enjoying this great privilege compared to women. This competition over who is the most oppressed does my head in. There are plenty of male prostitutes as well. Who are arguably often less visible with even less charitable support etc available (even less than the current shoddy amount for female prostitutes before anyone jumps down my throat).

A whole separate issue is how so many 'feminists' appear to be so western-centric, expending an awful lot of energy on, for example, how a certain word has sexist connotations that made them feel unsafe, and hardly looking at all at the terrible, ongoing subjugation of women in other countries. It's all virtue signalling, victimhood online identity bullshit.

And being suspicious of a man who claims to be feminist just proves my point that many so called feminists are just basically anti-men. The fuckers can't win. They're misogynist bigots if they say they're not feminist, and suspicious if they do. They can be as equal as possible about everything in their own lives but they are stillcguilty of an internal sexism that they are not even aware of. They are judged only for the fact they have a knob and if they deny being sexist, well that's just proof that they don't understand and therefore are extra-sexist. I'm not really sure what a man can do to be ok. Wear a hair shirt 24/7, self flagellate, endlessly confess the sins of their fathers and promise repent and atone (except they can never atone as no matter how they behave their inbuilt, subconscious misogyny remains)....

They're misogynist bigots if they say they're not feminist, and suspicious if they do.

Load of bollocks. It's not either/or