Son not welcome at sewing workshop

[Cheryl39]

Just tried to sign up for me, my 16 year old daughter and 18 year old son to join a one day sewing workshop and the tutor was very unwelcoming about my son joining. She said the workshops are mainly attended by women and the group as a whole might be uncomfortable talking about women's issues with a young man present. I feel really sad about this and so have not signed up.....is the tutor being discriminatory......what are your thoughts?

"I am sorry you felt attacked, OP, but I genuinely can't see why."

"I think it was pretty universal that her son should have been allowed to join. The conversation then broadened to other women only spaces and why........."

I think you are being a bit disingenuous here Bertrand. The OP came into a fair bit of grief early on about the idea that feminism shouldn't be interested because the affected party is a man, and suggesting that the OP is mendacious for posting. I was under the impression that is what you were implying as well?

Certainly several posters justified the OP's sons exclusion with the issue of women's safe spaces, rather than bringing it up in general terms.

I can see why the OP 'flounced', not everyone enjoys a bunfight. A few quotes to illustrate.

"Odd place to put this thread - it's not exactly women's rights..."

"Look for other classes."

"It is indeed quite an odd thread."

"Why is this thread in feminism?"

"OP, don't throw a tantrum........I am sure you can find a workshop where your son is welcome!"

"... there seem to have been a rush of threads about anti-man behaviour in the last day or so where the same thing has happened."

"Can't, women can't have anything for themselves."

"Why don't you or your son set up your own sewing club"

"I don't think the OP is in good faith" x2

"Is that you Donald?"

"Blimey,Chery, that's revolutionary stuff! hmm Glad you remembered the "women hust need to be nicer" trope....."

"Maybe there's still space in the brew your own beer workshop if you get in quick?"

"The thread has really pissed me off. The total destruction of women only spaces.........."

"really op? Shall we all visit beauty salons and wear pretty dresses before asking nicely for feminist issues to be addressed once the men have finished dealing with complex and important man topics?"

"This thread is utterly ludicrous.....with signature excessive ellipsis use."

"You'd get a very different reception on feminist threads where you are willing to talk about women's rights. FYI."

I mean who the actual rolls up as a tourist on holidays to sign themselves into a course where there are locals sitting in? I wouldn't dream of doing that. It would be fun if it were 'open to all' but smacks of privilege if you insist that, in absence of this notice, you've rights over the locals who actually live there.

If you see they exist due to the lack of safety for women how can you not see them as providing safety

Because they give a false impression of safety. I think women could be 'sitting ducks' in these spaces. There has already, on this thread, a post describing a man targeting an all female book group in order to obtain 'dates'. If it were unisex it would not be such a target.

Real safety is found in equality not segregation.

donquixote. I agree with you completely.

"I don't think the OP is in good faith" x2

That was me (at least one, possibly both) I agree the OP was not unreasonable in taking umbrage at what happened but I did wonder if the OP was seeking to provoke a certain type of response.

And scream that it's DISCRIMINATORY AND ILLEGAL

Get a grip. A one day workshop for sewing. Fucking hell.

I agree with all of that clarity in the sense those are all important actions to take but I don't think overcoming vulnerability to abusive men is as simple as that.

Because they give a false impression of safety. I think women could be 'sitting ducks' in these spaces. There has already, on this thread, a post describing a man targeting an all female book group in order to obtain 'dates'. If it were unisex it would not be such a target.

I don't agree with that at all. Again, in the example given, the problem is the abusive man who targeted the group not the existence of that group. How can you say that it'd not be a target were it unisex given how much sexual assault goes on in public?

I mean who the actual rolls up as a tourist on holidays to sign themselves into a course where there are locals sitting in? I wouldn't dream of doing that. It would be fun if it were 'open to all' but smacks of privilege if you insist that, in absence of this notice, you've rights over the locals who actually live there

You are coming up with more and more extreme situations. It was one day course a for anyone who wants to pay for it.

I mean who the actual rolls up as a tourist on holidays to sign themselves into a course where there are locals sitting in? I wouldn't dream of doing that. It would be fun if it were 'open to all' but smacks of privilege if you insist that, in absence of this notice, you've rights over the locals who actually live there

WTF are you even wittering about? Who is on holidays? Who are the locals? How does that have anything at all to with the actual fucking topic of the thread?

You seem utterly confused.

It's also not for anyone else to dictate to women and girls who feel the need for such a space, such as refuges or rape crisis centres

As I indicated before, this issue is complex. Whilst women are disproportionately have suffered, at the hands of men, they will understandably feel vulnerable amongst any group they connect with their abusers.

However, we have to be prepared for equality, which will involve being able to acknowledge when feminism has been successful enough so that men can no longer be viewed, generally, as oppressors.

Where you there Lass?

Or are you taking the OP at their word?

And you sound excessively angry TooSexy Are you okay?

However, we have to be prepared for equality, which will involve being able to acknowledge when feminism has been successful enough so that men can no longer be viewed, generally, as oppressors.

I'd love the day men can't be viewed as oppressors as they're not oppressing women to come.

Or are you taking the OP at their word?

Yes, that is usually the idea, we actually go on the details given, we don't invent outlandish scenarios that we pluck out of our asses, like you are doing.
It's helpful to use reality to have a sensible discussion. Try it.

I don't agree with that at all. Again, in the example given, the problem is the abusive man who targeted the group not the existence of that group. How can you say that it'd not be a target were it unisex given how much sexual assault goes on in public?

Ok. However how does segregated spaces attack the mindset that allows for gender stereotyping and attacks on women to go unchallenged? Surely this is just akin to forever hiding away?

Elendon

Where you there Lass?

Or are you taking the OP at their word?

Were you there? You are the one inventing scenarios of the OP being on holiday and muscling in on a local sewing workshop for local people in an ever more desperate attempt to justify her son's exclusion.

And scream that it's DISCRIMINATORY AND ILLEGAL

Get a grip. A one day workshop for sewing. Fucking hell

Right-by that reasoning I hope no one will ever complain if their daughters are turned away from a mechanics class or as one poster suggested as a suitable class for a son,a craft beer making class.

However how does segregated spaces attack the mindset that allows for gender stereotyping and attacks on women to go unchallenged? Surely this is just akin to forever hiding away?

It's not "hiding away" as the vast majority of spaces anyone would have to use day to day clearly aren't segregated. The mindset in terms of attacks on women isn't due to the safe spaces which are necessary for some as a result of them but is ingrained due to how society primarily views and treats women and girls and the pervasive misogyny in it. Gender stereotyping is also something which is often pushed on us from a very young age.

One of my children's schools experimented with single sex maths lessons for a while. It worked really well, but the Academy trust put a stop to it.

NoLove I know you said you agreed there was no need to exclude the son on the basis of the facts given. The responses of other posters however are verging on "hiding away".

It's also not for anyone else to dictate to women and girls who feel the need for such a space, such as refuges or rape crisis centres

I don't know who made this comment but to use a favourite FWR phrase- it is a straw man argument. Nobody said that.There is a huge difference between hobbies and practical skills courses and a refuge.

It's not "hiding away" as the vast majority of spaces anyone would have to use day to day clearly aren't segregated.

They are. Lavatories are routinely segregated. As are changing rooms. I'd much prefer unisex spaces which allow for user's personal privacy. I'd feel safer there than a deserted female only loo or changing room. They'd be easier to provide attendants for too.

Right-by that reasoning I hope no one will ever complain if their daughters are turned away from a mechanics class or as one poster suggested as a suitable class for a son,a craft beer making class.

I doubt you would get anywhere if you signed up to a one day course regarding 'mechanics' (what sort of mechanics are we talking about, car, electronics?) or a craft bee making one day course (anyone, seriously, anyone?).

A one day sewing course? Bullshit. What are you going to do? Learn to thread a needle?

Craft Beer of course. But yes, let's include a one day craft bee course as well. Like that's going to work.

Lass I believe clarity said something along the lines of "everything should be unisex" which I took to mean all spaces in any situation; I think she also said it in the context of abuse. It's due to that I thought it was relevant to bring them up - on the incident the OP raised as you said I think it completely wrong to have refused her son joining the workshop.

A few positive posts from the first two pages,

That's Ridiculous!!!

That's awful

I use to do a weekly sewing class, there was a man that attended every week! Hopefully you will find another class ran by someone
More welcoming x

WTF is wrong with people?! She needs to have a word with herself.

Agree she's f***g idiot . Ggggrrrrrrr

The tutor is an idiot

It's ridiculous. Who is running the course?

this is certainly not on.

Most odd.

Book yourself an dyour DC onto a better course. She's never heard of Paul Smith, Alexander McQueen and all the other male designers who started out cutting and sewing their own creations?
On a good course, they'll be talking about the design, the fabric, the stiching. Not periods.