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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Son not welcome at sewing workshop

376 replies

Cheryl39 · 20/07/2017 21:15

Just tried to sign up for me, my 16 year old daughter and 18 year old son to join a one day sewing workshop and the tutor was very unwelcoming about my son joining. She said the workshops are mainly attended by women and the group as a whole might be uncomfortable talking about women's issues with a young man present. I feel really sad about this and so have not signed up.....is the tutor being discriminatory......what are your thoughts?

OP posts:
NoLoveofMine · 22/07/2017 14:06

Your last paragraph makes no sense at all; either as an interpretation of what I said on here or as a standalone point.

It wasn't due to this particular thread and I wasn't sure of it. I'm glad you don't approve of them.

claritytobeclear · 22/07/2017 14:07

Bertrand the conflict exists though because having single sex courses reinforces gender stereotypes that state women and men's learning needs are different.

If feminism seeks to challenge that someone's sex is the main determiner for the way they learn and perform, it would follow that education should treat people the same regardless of their sex.

However as women and men are subjected to patriarchal society, their needs become more differentiated.

How can gender stereotypes best be challenged from this starting point, then?

PencilsInSpace · 22/07/2017 14:17

I see no problem at all in having sewing groups/courses that are women only, sewing groups/courses that are men only and sewing groups/courses that are mixed. I can see advantages to all of these.

If we only had women only sewing groups/courses then that would be a problem, obviously.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/07/2017 14:21

It wasn't due to this particular thread and I wasn't sure of it. I'm glad you don't approve of them

Gee thanks. I can only assume you did not read what I posted on this thread as nothing on this thread could have led you to your conclusion.

I do not appreciate you making up what is actually a pretty offensive conclusion , completely unwarranted from this thread, or for that matter , anything else I've ever said. Why you would conclude I would be opposed to special and uncessary segregation for women yet support special yet uncessary segregation esapes me.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/07/2017 14:23

I see no problem at all in having sewing groups/courses that are women only, sewing groups/courses that are men only and sewing groups/courses that are mixed. I can see advantages to all of these

Why ? What special sewing needs do men and women have?

DJBaggySmalls · 22/07/2017 14:26

Men and women dont have special sewing needs. They have different social needs.
Some classes are single sex and some are mixed. IDK why thats such a huge problem for anyone. The outrage that single sex classes provoke is ridiculous.

toosexyforyahshirt · 22/07/2017 14:28

Some classes are single sex and some are mixed. IDK why thats such a huge problem for anyone. The outrage that single sex classes provoke is ridiculous

For a start, its illegal unless properly advertised as such and can be justified according to need. Neither of which seem to be the case here.

Why are you defending businesses who are breaking discrimination laws that we fought so hard to get in the first place?

claritytobeclear · 22/07/2017 14:28

Incidentally if everything were unisex it would instantly solve a lot of the trans issues that exist now.

The difficulty lies in the transition from a patriarchal society, which undoubtedly effects people's whole life experience and outlook, to an equal society.

claritytobeclear · 22/07/2017 14:30

They have different social needs.
Some classes are single sex and some are mixed. IDK why thats such a huge problem for anyone. The outrage that single sex classes provoke is ridiculous.

No outrage here. However I don't understand which differing social needs are a result of a person's sex. Could you enlighten me, DJ?

toosexyforyahshirt · 22/07/2017 14:33

And why their social needs are important at a class you pay to learn sewing in? It's a commercial transaction, not a social group.

DJBaggySmalls · 22/07/2017 14:33

I tried to offer some suggestions on page 1, and have already been soundly ridiculed.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/07/2017 14:33

For a start, its illegal unless properly advertised as such and can be justified according to need. Neither of which seem to be the case here

According to need is key. Trying to justify general sewing, baking or mechanics courses, not offered as part of a specific therapeutic or integration programme, but just because some women /some men will be a bit uncomfortable is not a need.

claritytobeclear · 22/07/2017 14:43

Thing is I don't think women's social needs are different due to their sex but rather due to the oppression of their sex.

The only differing needs between the sexes, according to feminism, surely are biological ones? Like having access to sanitary ware disposal bins in toilets, for example. Or not being asked to do heavy lifting whilst pregnant. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

BertrandRussell · 22/07/2017 15:11

What about areas where men or women are traditionally underrepresented?

Elendon · 22/07/2017 15:14

Men and women dont have special sewing needs. They have different social needs. Some classes are single sex and some are mixed. IDK why thats such a huge problem for anyone. The outrage that single sex classes provoke is ridiculous.

This. Otherwise cancel all single sex schools as discriminatory, including Eton. If one day is discriminatory, then EVERYTHING single sex is discriminatory.

NoLoveofMine · 22/07/2017 15:16

Why you would conclude I would be opposed to special and uncessary segregation for women yet support special yet uncessary segregation esapes me.

Your general dismissal of sexism and misogyny women and girls experience and regularly jumping in to do so, yet never actually discussing sexism and misogyny occurring.

NoLoveofMine · 22/07/2017 15:20

Incidentally if everything were unisex it would instantly solve a lot of the trans issues that exist now.

What do you mean by "everything"? All women's spaces?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/07/2017 15:20

If it came to that I would. I can't afford Eton but could have afforded to send my son to a private boy's school. I didn't.

As clarity said - it is chicken and egg. There are no physical needs to justify separate classes for the activities mentioned on here and keeping them separate is propping artificially constructed social needs.

claritytobeclear · 22/07/2017 15:22

This. Otherwise cancel all single sex schools as discriminatory, including Eton. If one day is discriminatory, then EVERYTHING single sex is discriminatory

Elendon, I think everything single sex is discriminatory by definition. I like mixed schools, went to a mixed school and sent my child to a mixed school. I think schools being mixed promotes equality and challenges gender stereotypes.

NoLoveofMine · 22/07/2017 15:24

I think schools being mixed promotes equality and challenges gender stereotypes.

In an ideal world I'd like all schools to be mixed because there's no need for single sex education. However, I'm not sure we can say mixed schools challenge stereotypes when the take up of STEM subjects is so high at girls' schools but woefully low amongst girls at mixed schools, likewise for sports, and the take up of arts subjects is so much higher amongst boys at boys' schools than at mixed schools.

claritytobeclear · 22/07/2017 15:27

What do you mean by "everything"? All women's spaces?

It would be a good aim, in a context of equality, NoLove. At the moment it is difficult because Patriarchy has lead to abuses of women. Those women suffering the most are quite understandably in a vulnerable position. However it is not all men they need to be protected from but rather those men that under a Patriarchal system have had the opportunity to abuse them.

If society were truly equal there would be no need for sex segregation.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/07/2017 15:28

Your general dismissal of sexism and misogyny women and girls experience and regularly jumping in to do so, yet never actually discussing sexism and misogyny occurring

Try reading the actual thread and not the version existing in your head. In case the point is still not clear I am not in favour of special and uncessary segregated provision for men or women. I think you will struggle and fail to find any post on any thread which could have led you to your conclusion that I support men only clubs or similar.

Oh and I do discuss sexism and misogyny occurring. I do not however agree with the women as eternally oppressed victim theory.

Elendon · 22/07/2017 15:36

I've no interested into whether anyone can afford schools or not. It simply remains as a fact that the most exclusive school in the British Isles (and beyond) is Eton, an all boy's school. Which is exclusionary on sex. Position that against a day course that may not be suitable for an 18 year old male (an adult).

toosexyforyahshirt · 22/07/2017 15:36

If one day is discriminatory, then EVERYTHING single sex is discriminatory

No, it isn't. You know that, so why say something so ridiculous?

NoLoveofMine · 22/07/2017 15:37

However it is not all men they need to be protected from but rather those men that under a Patriarchal system have had the opportunity to abuse them.

How can one differentiate between the men who aren't abusers and those who are, or are potential abusers?

Unfortunately society is far from truly equal and so women's spaces are vital in some circumstances.