"Two British men become the first to give birth"

[OlennasWimple]

Telegraph story here

Except, of course, they aren't men, they are transmen, one of whom conceived using donor sperm and the other following a heterosexual one night stand.

I'm slightly gladdened, though, by the BTL comments which point out that it's not possible to change sex. Perhaps they are all noms de plume, but most seem to be from men (and men who would never call themselves radical feminists). I'm waiting to see whether there is an invasion of TRAs into that forum or whether they save themselves for easier targets

Fair point Everything. I pretty much stopped reading the Guardian after its coverage of Cologne, Rotherham and the Trojan Horse schools stuff in Birmingham. In each case they seemed more at pains to downplay the backgrounds of the perpetrators than acknowledge the harm done to the victims

I'm not normally into conspiracies but it does make you wonder... the way the trans stuff, despite being clearly bonkers, seems to have made such headway so quickly, and the media on board too... it does discredit the left.

The whole trans nonsense is actually right-wing propaganda in disguise.

I mean, the whole gender thing. That's what feminists have fought against since basically forever. The suffragettes fought the notion that female brains were somehow not equipped to decide on a vote.

The only thing in which the transagenda differs from the oldfashioned genderbullshit is that it pretends you get to choose.

This would never have happened before women got the vote. Males wouldn't have wanted to sign their voting rights away by claiming that they have a ladybrain, and sure as hell would not have wanted to give women who claimed a case of manbrain the vote. (Because all women would have claimed manbrain then)

Only now that all official oppressions have been removed in the US and Europe, it benefits misogynist men to pretend that you get to choose. You don't, of course. The only tiny bit of freedom that women get by transagenda is the freedom to have a sterilization without questions asked - but the price for that is lifelong dependency on artificial hormones (you don't get to have just your tubes tied by claiming manbrain, you have to sacrifice your ovaries and uterus), which keeps you under control just as nicely as being pregnant or having children would.

And males get access to women in spaces where feminists had originally achieved (relative) safety for women. Women's toilets enabled women to participate in public life - not anymore.
Shelters enabled women to leave abusive husbands without risking homelessness - well, now it is off to the streets again if you don't want to share your room with a male.
Imprisoning women in a cell with men was deemed inappropriate the moment prisons became more about resocialisation than just safekeeping until the execution, as everyone could clearly see what it led to.

Trans is deeply, deeply right-wing. Right-wing propaganda painted pink and disguised with glitter.

It is such a "back to misogyny" movement that some conservatives even don't recognize it as being on their side, because conservative men got used to their wives and daughters being able to safely move in public, use showers and changing rooms in public places, etc, and don't remember the time when it was different thanks to men like them. Not all conservatives want back to the time when a woman's place was in the home and girls weren't sent to school. That's why they oppose trans agenda.

Otherwise, they'd gladly support it.

God, so depressing. Why can't the lesbian couple in this article just accept they're lesbians and don't conform to narrow gender stereotypes, fight misogyny and wear whatever clothes they like? Why mutilate their bodies? The thing that has me angriest though - no way should the NHS be paying to have healthy tissue (breasts) removed when some people can't get their cancer treatment funded on the NHS (see the second episode of the recent series of "hospital" ). Heartening that none of the comments accept this story though.

no way should the NHS be paying to have healthy tissue (breasts) removed when some people can't get their cancer treatment funded on the NHS

I'm wary of comparing treatments in this way as it often seems to be used to disparage those who have surgery for medical reasons that greatly improves their quality of life - eg. breast reduction due to pain and so on. But ... it's extremely difficult to get a breast reduction op on the NHS normally, even for medical reasons! Yet they will do it because someone thinks they are really a man?! What happened to "it's all in your head" that women normally get fobbed off with? Something is fucking weird about this trans thing; it doesn't add up.

I suspect the ongoing lack of funding/care about mental health contributes. No way would they be able/willing to provide the kind of therapy necessary to explore issues around gender dysphoria and help someone come to terms with their body. The lack of funding and subsequent culture of quick-fixes means that referring for surgery is the "easiest" way.

What happened to "it's all in your head" that women normally get fobbed off with? Something is fucking weird about this trans thing; it doesn't add up.

It upholds patriarchy, that's why women claiming to be men get special treatment.
It is the same thing as the sworn virgins of Albania, who were legally considered men (but were not allowed to marry a man OR a woman).
Could they just give all women the right to inherit property? Sure, they could have, but that would have undermined their patriarchy, so they didn't.
(The tradition died out when changes in larger politics meant that all women could inherit property, hold a job, etc.)

As long as the women demanding to be treated as human are clear that it is an exception that is only to be made for them, and that they have no intention of supporting other women in demanding the same, they are given preferential treatment.

Talking of Left Wing bollocks, have a listen to the new Best Of The Left podcast discussing 'TERFS'. Warning: most of it with make you blow braincells

www.bestoftheleft.com/_1118_a_look_in_at_the_terf_wars_feminism_and_trans_rights

So this is a pro-trans thing?

Can you give a short version of it in writing? Having had thrown the slur "terf" at me way too often in the recent time, I don't think I can stomach any more of this bullshit - but I'd like to know what their theory is of why "terfs" are worse than men who beat up, kill and rape trans.

Well it's supposed to be balanced but it is very pro trans. Don't have time to summarise but I had to listen in several bouts because it was giving me the rage so much. It does have a reasonable item on de-transitioning and various others including Janet Mock. Doesn't actually include the 'TERF' viewpoint at all, just dialogue as to why this view is so mean. Will try to summarise later

Orwell was spot on about distortion of language and meaning as a tool.

In my more paranoid moments I think the trans movement is a deliberate ploy to bring down feminism and Lgb as a secondary effect with one stone.

Throughout history every valid cause has had opposition, some open like the kkk, some stealthily like disability rights & benefits bashing in the media, some through being hijacked by idiots with their own agenda such as Catholic emancipation. But so far nobody has managed to halt feminism or lgb rights, or send them backwards. Even though progress is sometimes so slow it feels like it!

The trans ideology is the ideal fix all. You send feminism backwards, whilst jumping on the lgb bandwagon. So you get to discredit lgb as a group by making them look responsible, but at the same time escape criticism by taking refuge in the vulnerable status of lgb. And also get to destroy support for transsexuals and the tiny minority of people who were transgender before it was cool, and have never infringed women's rights.

An all round winner.

Although possibly they miscalculated the feminist/ lesbian part of the equation. Society tells us feminists are mainly lesbian, so I can also imagine it being the case that simply by infiltrating the lgbt community they thought they could get the majority of feminists, i.e lesbians, on side.

I am just so done with all this crap

Although possibly they miscalculated the feminist/ lesbian part of the equation. Society tells us feminists are mainly lesbian, so I can also imagine it being the case that simply by infiltrating the lgbt community they thought they could get the majority of feminists, i.e lesbians, on side.

If that was the intention, they shouldn't have told lesbians to suck dick. While there's lesbians who obey them, I think most lesbians consider this a reason to resist the transagenda.

I don't think it is a deliberate ploy as a whole. Parts of it probably are, (There's certainly some men who used to identify as MRAs involved because they know they can infiltrate feminism that way) but I think most female trans allies - and most trans allies I have met were female - are just acting on subconscious, internalized misogyny.

The males who invade female spaces by identifying their way in just do what males are socialized to do and intuitively want to do: Walking all over women's boundaries.

But so far nobody has managed to halt feminism or lgb rights, or send them backwards.

I don't think so. What about Afghanistan? Women used to be much less oppressed there than it is the case now.

And I am not an expert on the matter, but some experts claim that during some times of the Middle Ages, women actually had more legal rights than in the early modern times.
(The witch hunts might have been a backlash, I think. There's also some parallels to the terf hunts ...)

The fact that there's a backlash is nothing new. Just how it is done.

I have always warned people about assuming that once progress has been made, it cannot be taken away again. It can, and it is. We probably know much less about it than we could, because history is censored by the winners.

I agree re the treatment of lesbians. They aren't as a group of benefit to the trans lobby so they want them gone too.

And probably should have clarified I was thinking of feminism in western countries since the suffragettes, rather than it's full history or world wide.

I'm not always fully convinced it's a deliberate ploy either, but a handy one to seize upon at the least!

Lurked In my more paranoid moments I think the trans movement is a deliberate ploy to bring down feminism and Lgb as a secondary effect with one stone.

Feminism I can understand being a target, but is LGB much of a threat to the status quo? (I realise it appeared to be at one stage in history, but it doesn't seem to have changed much in wider society). Or do you think it's all part and parcel of questioning gender norms?

In my most paranoid moments I think it's part of the new age of "alternative facts", especially with the internet meaning a lot of people can know a lot of bollocks and history can be erased/faked more convincingly (?). Sort of a test to see how much doublethink we will accept.

Or perhaps someone somewhere has placed a bet and it's got out of hand...

Are feminists mostly lesbian? I suspect most lesbians are feminists, but I don't think it works the other way around as well

Feminism I can understand being a target, but is LGB much of a threat to the status quo?

Women pairing up to form families, have children and earn a living has been THE nightmare for some for decades. And now it's happening. I can see Lesbians being thought a threat by some.

Although, I suspect it's all more instinctive and subconscious than an actual "plot".

Thank full for this thread glad it's not just me

Can't have it both ways

Are feminists mostly lesbian? I suspect most lesbians are feminists, but I don't think it works the other way around as well

Nah, it is just a stereotype. Considering how few lesbians there are (something below 10% of the population, or of women?) it would be rather depressing if you couldn't be a feminist without being a lesbian.

Though I have to admit that most radfem bloggers I know are lesbian. Possibly because they are not so invested in believing that patriarchy is a woeful misunderstanding that just fell from the sky some day and can be fixed by just telling men that it's not nice.

Or because lesbians were the first group to be targeted for annihilation by the trans and thus turned from libfem to radfem.

everything not as much of a threat but maybe a secondary one because the stereotype of the manly lesbian or effeminate gay male are more commonly known rejections of gender roles in the mainstream media.

olennas I don't think that they are either, I was saying it tongue in cheek.

Women pairing up to form families, have children and earn a living has been THE nightmare for some for decades. And now it's happening. I can see Lesbians being thought a threat by some.

Lesbians are thought a threat by all antifeminists. Lesbians themselves might think that they just want to live their lives in peace, marry someone they love, have children, like any heterosexual woman.

But such a simple and seemingly harmless desire is a dangerous threat to patriarchy.

Because lesbians won't sit there with all other wives, and nod their heads and say "Oh, you know how it is, I shoulder all the responsibility for our social life and children, and gave up my career and have no financial safety, that's just how things are when you are married."

Lesbians could cause other women to get uppity. And that's why they are a threat, even if they just live their happy little lives and never to any feminist activism.

Lesbians could cause other women to get uppity.

I'm smiling but it's true.

There was this thread on AIBU where someone asked how gay men possibly manage to have clean houses and be well dressed and all ... because we all now that "men can't do that".

I think that's one of the reasons openly gay men are a threat. (It is fine as long as they marry a woman and make her feel miserable and unattractive and cheat on her with male prostitutes.)

Women might start to think men are actually capable of cleaning and cooking!

Women might start to think men are actually capable of cleaning and cooking!

only might - its not definite though.