Girls only schools

[ParadiseCity]

I'm struggling with a potential decision and wondered if anyone would mind sharing their thoughts please...

DD may have the opportunity to go to an all girls secondary school. We have looked round and she loved it. She liked but didn't love the mixed high school (which DS is already at and I think is fantastic).

It doesn't sit right with me to separate children into girls and boys. However I work in a male dominated profession and can see that an environment free from mansplaining and being talked over is very appealing. Just not sure what is for the best.

[VestalVirgin]

Academically we all did well but I do wonder how much our lack of seeing boys get questions wrong, be a bit smelly, suffer from self confidence issues -all the same things that girls do in the classroom - meant that we elevated them to a status above us.

Are there single sex primary schools?

After four years of primary school, I knew enough about boys so that I would have preferred a girls' school.

You may have a point, but I am not sure ... I did observe girls competing for boy's attention even though they were co-ed and knew perfectly well how boys are.

I think it has more to do with social conditioning than with a lack of experience.

Though of course I only went to co-ed schools and don't know how bad it is at single sex schools.

[TheDowagerCuntess]

Are single sex schools representative of real life though?

You're only in school for X hours a day. Most girls at single sex schools have fathers. Many have brothers, and extended family members who are male. Some even have interactions with boys and men in the evenings and weekends. That was certainly my experience!

In the meantime, you're getting an education (seen as a priority for many) free from the distractions and often (generalising) domineering presence of boys.

'Elevating boys/men to a status above us' was certainly not my experience. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was quite the opposite, but I definitely came away feeling equal.

And then I went out into the 'real world', and it gradually dawned on me that they do hold a status above us. Depressing.

[sticklebrix]

Are single sex schools representative of real life though?

No! But that's kind of the point.

[sticklebrix]

In a good school, maybe a glimpse of how life could be for women if men didn't hold them back.

[elephanthiding]

I went to an all girls school, was heavily involved in the Girl Guides, and had a single mum, with three sisters, and a strong grandmother.

I went to university thinking feminism was a done deal.

Blimey, the real world was a shock.

But I've achieved a lot, and I don't know if I would have without that all female environment where I was taught I was totally equal to any man, and that I could do anything that needed doing. So, I'm grateful. However, it's meant that I've had to learn to become a feminist in adulthood, because I mistakenly thought feminism wasn't needed, and was all about drinking your own menstrual blood, which didn't appeal.

I think it's led to my bewilderment when feminism is necessary, as for my formative years, it wasn't. Would I send my daughter to an all girls school? Quite possibly, but she has more feminist male role models than I did outside school.

[multivac]

It's always interesting on these threads how many parents, having read the papers, decide on single sex for their daughters; co-ed for their sons.

I mean, it's lucky, isn't it, that there are so many parents less concerned about their daughters' education than you are, who are prepared to send them to a mixed school, so your boys can benefit from their presence?

[Madeyemoodysmum]

Considering stats claim generally girls do better academically than boys I don't see how the argument for single sex for girls holds up. Girls are achieving over boys in mixed sex schools too. If anything it's the boys that are suffering.

[NoLoveofMine]

What do they want us to say in response to it, I always wonder...

I think they want us to agree with them about what horrible bitches girls are, how awful teenage girls are, how girls just hate one another and are so vicious and evil!

Unfortunately for them, girls' schools are full of support, inspiration, love and friendship.

[VestalVirgin]

I mean, it's lucky, isn't it, that there are so many parents less concerned about their daughters' education than you are, who are prepared to send them to a mixed school, so your boys can benefit from their presence?

Well, can you blame people for doing this?
They want the best for their children, and if all feminists sent their sons to single-sex schools, then girls at coed schools would only have the sons of non-feminists for company, which would be even worse.

As long as mixed schools exist, boys will be sent there. One could argue that parents should campaign for a guaranteed place in a single sex school for every girl. But nothing will be achieved by just not sending you son there. Someone else will send their son there, anyway.

[Datun]

I mean, it's lucky, isn't it, that there are so many parents less concerned about their daughters' education than you are, who are prepared to send them to a mixed school, so your boys can benefit from their presence?

Many people aren't the slightest bit interested in raising their daughters (or sons) as feminists. In fact, quite the opposite.

Many people don't agree that single sex schools are good. As evidenced by this thead.

Many people actively want their children to mix with members of the opposite sex, for a variety of reasons.

If you asked the parents of daughters who are being sent to a mixed school why they were so 'unconcerned about their daughter's education', most of them wouldn't know what you were talking about. And if you explained many would disagree.

When you are trying to choose a school for your child, there are a zillion things to take into account. Only one of which will be whether it is mixed. And everyone's priorities are completely different. Location is more important to some people. Or whether they offer the IB. Whether the school is sporty, or has a strong drama/music department.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

I mean, it's lucky, isn't it, that there are so many parents less concerned about their daughters' education than you are, who are prepared to send them to a mixed school, so your boys can benefit from their presence

I actually take some umbrage about the embedded assumptions that single-sex schools are necessarily better and that parents who send their daughters to mixed-sex schools are not concerned about their education. Sure, some SS schools are wonderful for girls (but I know that not all are) and many girls will flourish in SS education ... but this is not to say that mixed-sex is necessarily bad / worse or something parents resort to because they don't care about their daughters' education.

I went mixed. The alternative was a convent school which I don't think would have suited me and which was probably more regressive than feminist. Also, whereas I am thinking of applying as a mature-age student at NoLove's school because it sounds so wonderful, I don't think that my mixed-sex education was bad. It was in what would be called now a deprived school, but the teachers were excellent, they defended my educational aims (for the most part), I met some wonderful people and I certainly was not spoon-fed, making me more independent and resilient at university than many others there who had gone to more salubrious schools (those that teach to exams so their image looks good). It suited me at the time and I don't regret it. There were instances of sexism, but I learned how to deal with them and I also learned a lot of proto-feminism there in response to some of the situations I encountered. I'm not saying mixed is better, just that it isn't all bad.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I mean, it's lucky, isn't it, that there are so many parents less concerned about their daughters' education than you are, who are prepared to send them to a mixed school, so your boys can benefit from their presence

Was that meant to be sarcastic? I expect the parents of girls at my son's co-ed fee paying school cared given they chose it over a single sex school. If I had had a daughter it is the school I would have chosen for her.

[Madeyemoodysmum]

Boys are not evil creatures to be avoided at all costs. It really annoys me that these threads always imply that boys are all sexist pigs or mess about and will ruin a girls education.
I picked my dds mixed sex school BECAUSE I was so impressed with the boys They were polite and articulate. They mixed well with the girls. It felt very natural and a fun place to learn. I want my dd to grow up thinking that she can be equal to boys but be friends with them too Separating them won't achieve this properly. And what does it teach her brother? That girls must be removed from him to learn.
It's my job to teach him to be a good man That's what I intend to do.

[GreenTulips]

If that's the case - why do my girls complain about the boys behaviour in school during lessons? And why does my son have the most behaviour points (relatively low compared to most of the boys 14 v 187)

Are boys excluded more? Are they picked up more? Are teachers proving a point?

[sticklebrix]

Boys are not evil creatures to be avoided at all costs.

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that boys are evil creatures to be avoided at all costs! It's about giving girls an academic boost in life and shielding them from the well-documented phenomenon of sexual harassment. Other people will choose mixed for their DDs for many different good reasons.

Honestly, I am less concerned about my son's academic education than my daughters'. He is motivated and reasonably bright. By default and with far less effort, he is likely to whizz through life with way more opportunities available to him than my DDs. Picking up speed as an adult when/if the DDs start having babies.

I'd be happy to send him to a slightly-less-beneficial-for-boys SS school if this meant that a SS education was available for all local girls who wanted one.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

To be fair Green Tulips, the most disruptive students at my school were girls for the most part ... Mind you, we never had behaviour points in them days or computers, mobile phones, selfies and social media. I also experienced a lot of bullying from girls (and boys). A big part of the environment was about impressing the boys. But I also heard some horror stories from all-girls schools, especially those that were wealthier. I can't help thinking that there are so many factors at play here including whether the school is publicly or privately funded, is religious and whether it is specialist in any way, as well as the sheer dumb luck factor of happening to have a cache of good teachers (or not). I know a lot of good teachers have recently run a mile from teaching for a whole range of reasons including pay and conditions, fatigue, parents' expectations, staff room bullying and the fact that (and I have heard this from teachers) so many kids do play up and are disruptive to the point of violence and there is very little recourse teachers have to do anything about this.

[M0stlyBowlingHedgehog]

Of course boys aren't evil (I have one myself - he is delightful and thoughful and caring). But there is a wealth of psychological evidence ([https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=P77CasYh2w0C&pg=PA265&lpg=PA265&dq=teachers+spend+more+time+on+boys&source=bl&ots=qs4HJokhkf&sig=uAfpiRmljiO2rtq9cdS4l2YePvo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjU9obW84rVAhWeHsAKHSnyBS0Q6AEIRDAH#v=onepage&q=teachers%20spend%20more%20time%20on%20boys&f=false "look inside"]] for Handbook of Psychology: Educational Psychology on Amazon with copious references to the peer-reviewed literature) showing teachers are socially conditioned to spend more time on and pay more attention to the boys, and boys are socially conditioned to play up to the cultural stereotype of the "naughty boy who messes around".

In a perfect school teachers would be aware of this stuff and have classroom strategies to mitigate and compensate for sex-stereotyping, and would have robust anti-bullying policies to make sure that any sort of bullying, but particularly (in secondary schools/upper years of primary school) that sexual bullying, harrassment and assault is dealt with really robustly and rapidly. That's definitely the sort of school I'll be looking for for DS. (If I had a DD I'd be pulling out all the stops to get her into the extremely good girls only school though).

[M0stlyBowlingHedgehog]

Gah, clicky link: here

[NoLoveofMine]

Boys are not evil creatures to be avoided at all costs. It really annoys me that these threads always imply that boys are all sexist pigs

I have a fair few good friends who are boys (and feminists) and my brothers certainly aren't sexist (they know they'd face my wrath) but I have heard and seen a huge amount of sexism and misogyny from boys, plus heard of it in mixed schools where sexual assaults have risen in recent years. It won't be the case in all mixed schools and clearly isn't all boys but it definitely occurs. My brothers attend one of the top boys' schools in the country and I also know boys there - I've also heard horrific misogyny from others there but doubtless when addressing teachers or parents they're extremely polite.

In general on the topic of this thread I suppose it clearly depends on the child. I'm very grateful to go to a girls' school and as I've said many times think it's fantastic for so many reasons; others would thrive in mixed environments. For some they'd probably be fine in either. A lot also depends on the specific school (although I also know girls at other girls' schools who think they're great too).

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

In general on the topic of this thread I suppose it clearly depends on the child

I think it also depends on the school. The choices my parents made for me were not really in my best interests because I was supposed to leave school at 15 and get a 'good job' as a secretary or bank clerk as fitted my sex, but the mixed sex school was really the best option given financial constraints and it worked really well mainly because of some fantastic teachers - it was sheer dumb luck really. I'm honestly not saying 'check your privilege', but from what you have written it does seem that you and your parents faced few(er) constraints than mine. Your school sounds really wonderful, but I suspect it is out of the picture for many and many others will face different and probably more constrained choices. TBH I envy you. At my own school, I learned critical thinking before it became a buzz word. At university, I excelled because I could so easily see beneath the bullshit and because I could also look at situations from marginal positions because I was in a marginal position (more related to social class than sex), so I could analyse the fuck out of something from standing outside and looking in. Ultimately, though, those with more material wealth tended to do better because they had more wealth and that brought the kinds of material, social and cultural capital that saw them have the success that I did not, even though on the marks sheets that in those days were publicly displayed with names on them mine was always at the top. Sorry - that's a rant, but it goes back to my former point that it isn't just about ss vs ms...

[NoLoveofMine]

Very true Spartacus. The school is probably the main factor as you say; the culture, teaching and atmosphere at the school are so important for pupils to thrive. It's fantastic to hear you did so at school and university and your point about my schooling is a very good one (hope that doesn't come across as patronising) - I should think about that more when I post on the topic of schools. I was trying to get across how much I think girls' schools can help girls and how lovely the atmosphere is in them from my experience and that of friends but appreciate I'm very lucky to be able to attend such a school.

[TheDowagerCuntess]

Considering stats claim generally girls do better academically than boys I don't see how the argument for single sex for girls holds up. Girls are achieving over boys in mixed sex schools too. If anything it's the boys that are suffering.

Doesn't seem to be doing them too much harm though, given that they leave school and go on to rule the world.

[Hotheadwheresthecoldbath]

I went to a large city comp. and did well academically,girls encouraged to do sciences etc.I had a mixed group of friends all through school,all in the same classes/sets so although there was casual sexism I was mostly shielded by it.
My daughter's experience,now age 14 is completely different.She has been a bit unfortunate in that her year group in primary there were only 6 girls out of a class of 26, the girls never got to work together and she would often come home upset as in group work the boys either didn't listen to her ideas or messed around and then copied her work.
Secondary school(must have been something in the water)again boys far outnumber girls.She lived sport but has dropped all of it as she is embarrassed by the boys watching,she wanted to go off sick on sports day.She hates all the who fancies who stuff and is one of only 3 girls doing computer science.
She does call out bits for sexism if she knows them well .It is all so much more pressured than when I was at school.She has had all her long hair cut really,really short this year and as it was so radical and unusual and suits her she has not been teased at all,only on other girl in her year has short hair.
I think she would have had more confidence if she had had more girls around her early on but as she's got older and noticed that I am a bit of a closet rebel she is getting there.If I had had a choice for her I would have sent her to an all girl's school though and then scouts for a bit if mixing.

[NoLoveofMine]

I'm very sorry to hear that about your daughter's experiences Hotheadwheresthecoldbath. It seems such a shame that she's been put off sport (though fully understandable and something which happens to many girls - there's another thread about that on this forum entitled "This Girl Can"). Do you think she might be able to join a club or somewhere to play sport away from school, with other girls? It's not too late for her to get back into sport and do something she loves. It'd be great for her confidence especially as she loved it before.

With regards to computer science this is something else which worries me about mixed schools - why it is that subjects are so gendered. I have a couple of friends at a girls' school near where I live at which computer science is taught from Year 7 now, and the take up is pretty significant to A Level. STEM subjects are all popular at my school and the girls' schools I know of. I hope she's not being put off by being one of only three girls? I hope they can support one another and all thrive in the subject. Maybe she could look into doing some extra work in it outside school and finding groups of women in the field. Not sure if any of these might be of any help: www.codefirstgirls.org.uk/
www.geekgirlmeetup.co.uk/

Though she goes to a mixed school there may be ways to meet up with other girls and women who share her interests in those subjects and gain more confidence. It's fantastic she challenges sexism when she can, too!

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

Secondary school(must have been something in the water)again boys far outnumber girls

Maybe the girls in the area have gone to SS schools, leaving those without the means to do so in your daughter's predicament.