Girls only schools

[ParadiseCity]

I'm struggling with a potential decision and wondered if anyone would mind sharing their thoughts please...

DD may have the opportunity to go to an all girls secondary school. We have looked round and she loved it. She liked but didn't love the mixed high school (which DS is already at and I think is fantastic).

It doesn't sit right with me to separate children into girls and boys. However I work in a male dominated profession and can see that an environment free from mansplaining and being talked over is very appealing. Just not sure what is for the best.

[NoLoveofMine]

On the subject of male heads at girls' schools (something I've also been dubious of), a chum at a highly academic and successful girls' school just down the road from me showed me this tonight from their recently appointed male head (name and school edited out):

X is the first male Head in the school's 143-year history. On his appointment, X said: “Right from my first visit to (school) I have been struck by the school’s warm and friendly atmosphere, and how grounded and assured the girls are and how supportive they are of one another. I am passionate about ensuring all the girls reach their full potential and are not restricted in any way. The last 12 years’ teaching has given me a keen sense of the confidence and community which a girls’ only education can provide; I am delighted to be joining a school with such a positive and enabling ethos, which is both academic and rich in activities beyond the classroom, and with such good relations between staff and students.”

[EBearhug]

We had a male head for my last year or last two years of school. I'd say he was an improvement on his female predecessor, though she must have been good in her way, as it was a good school. He was certainly more approachable, but some of that is probably just down to me being older and getting over a fear of adults.

[pancake360]

I sort of had a choice of schools when I was younger, the very average mixed comprehensive that my brother went to, or a neighbouring school that had suddenly been doing very well (in between my brother starting secondary). Even though I was asked what I wanted to do (I desperately wanted to go to better school, as I was top of my class in primary and loved learning) I also felt a lot of subtle pressure from parents, Dad openly commented that it was too posh and full of snobs, so in the end I went to my brothers school. I think if your daughter is naturally drawn to the single sex school then let her go there, I think younger people use their instincts more than logical arguments and I'm sure she will be happy. I was very unhappy at my school and was bullied a lot. Not sure if things would have been different at the other school but I know I would have had more in common with my cohort. Sorry to put a downer on it but thought I'd give perspective!

[Squishedstrawberry4]

If she likes it, go for it. And add activities like scouts to widen her experience

[steppemum]

if your daughter loves the school, then why not send her there?

I see this type of comment often on primary to secondary school threads and I have to say I don't agree.

As a parent I can see and understand much more about what a school does and does not offer. The child in question at the time of chosing is 10. They will be swayed by things which in the long run don't matter.

We wanted ds to go to thr grammar school, he wanted to go to the local school. He couldn't appreciate the opportunity differences at GCSE that he would have, or the advantages of being among a group of kids where it was cool to be clever, as he had no experience of either of those things. We chose the grammar because we could see that in many ways it would be a perfect fit for ds.
He wasn't happy. We promised him if it didn't work out he could switch to another school at end of year 7.
He was partly swayed by the fact that the main hall is a very old room with a wooden church-like ceiling. He called the school old fashioned, ignoring the science labs, IT suit, modern DT and art buildings etc.

He came back from the induction day in July grinning from ear to ear, and he loves his school.

I think as parents we can see the overview of the whole school career in the way our kids can't. And we can debate the pros and cons of things like single sex education, which our kids can debate with us, but without the understanding of the cultural baggage/impact it may have.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

It would certainly explain why I am so rubbish at getting into relationships (or was - I'm 50s now so that ship has long since sailed) - can't flirt, totally fail to notice men coming on to me nine times out of ten. I have had quite a few relationships, but mostly ones I've kind of stumbled into by accident

I swear you are me.

I am absolutely rubbish I mean I would literally he stood there naked befire I twigged that actually things have moved beyond just chatting as human beings and maybe there was an ulterior motive all along.

Yet still I find it easier to deal with that than talk to women who I have no way if keeping up with in a conversation

[Squishedstrawberry4]

It's fine to go for it if she loves it as long as you feel it's the right school also. Scouts, mixed sex non school clubs also

[Gileswithachainsaw]

But indent to a mixed school.

The more I think about it the more I think I'd have been better off at the all girls school

[annandale]

My girls' grammar education was a while ago. I wouldn't choose a crap girls' school over a decent mixed, and ds's mixed is fab, but there's nothing wrong with a safe atmosphere.

I would like single sex middle school and mixed high school personally.

[ParadiseCity]

NoLove, I haven't ignored you, I've read what you posted but it doesn't convince me.

Steppemum, I totally agree that parents understand a lot more about what is involved than 10 year olds do!

I am finding all the replies really interesting.

[ALittleBitOfButter]

I feel quite refreshingly surprised by this thread. My private, Christian girls' school was the most insular, anti-feminist, un-intellectual (although 'academic' - no subversive English teachers there!). The girls were nasty to anyone different/fat/"ethnic"/poor/dowdy. You were expected to like studying but anyone who actually read books for pleasure was a weirdo (me).

When i first worked in a government co-ed school i was enchanted by how tolerant the kids were. I'd been led to believe non conformers were bullied mercilessly. Instead there were openly gay kids, migrant kids who were popular, it was cool to be smart etc etc.

Suppose it depends on the school innit!

[mollymcmuffin]

I wish I'd gone to an all girls school, I was clever and bright but bullied by less clever boys, classes were taken up by them being "cheeky", they really knocked my confidence I think.

I will be sending my dd to a girls school if possible, our nearest one is a grammar though.

[ErnesttheBavarian]

Nolove, I'm sorry you feel that way. I do frequently too here! For what it's worth, I was interested to read your points and, for the sake of sublime patronising, which ok definitely don't mean to be, was impressed by how mature and positive you sounded. I had to go back and check you said you were a current pupil.

Anyway, I attended 2 all girls schools. One was a comprehensive Catholic convent school. The other was a state grammar. I was very happy in the Catholic comp. Hated the state grammar, but I think that was more do do with changing schools at 14 at the opposite end of the copy and just not fitting in. I wasn't aware of bullying in either of the schools and felt very much supported in a feminist environment in both of the schools.

I am definitely going to send my dd to an all girls school. I've long been keen on the idea, and moreso now that I've read the thread.

BTW she went to an all boys school, and has, certainly in the workplace, a very feminist perspective. At home possibly less so

[NoLoveofMine]

Thank you very much Ernest and not at all patronising - that's a really kind post which made me smile to read! I'm very glad you are keen to send your daughter to an all girls school and very much hope she loves her time at one - I'm sure she will thrive there. I'm very passionate about girls' schools because of how much one has done for me and how much I feel they benefit girls. I want girls to thrive at any school but with society as it is do feel girls can achieve so much and discover so much about themselves at girls' schools.

[ErnesttheBavarian]

I can't type on a phone I am more or less literate honest.

No idea what sublime was supposed to mean. In last para, she should have been dh. Somewhere in the middle, copy is actually country.

My 2 of my 3 ds are probably the loud one some poor girl has had to sit next to. I work in a primary school and really try to avoid the girls sinking into the background. The difference in self confidence, taking chances etc is disheartening, even at age 7, 8 and 9.

[NoLoveofMine]

The amount of times I type messages on my phone and have to edit many words thanks to errant autocorrect is ridiculous no school of any kind can cure this problem I fear!

[Puffpaw]

For me it was basically an environment where sex was irrelevant, in that there was no sexual tension, no 'boy' or 'girl' subjects, no mansplaining, no patronising, no competing for time with boys, no sexism.
This was my experience to. Sexism in the real world came as a bit of a shock later on in life, I was frankly unaware it existed! But I had the inner confidence and self esteem from a great start to get past it, not let it knock me back. I think single sex ed is really good for girls.

[EBearhug]

Sexism in the real world came as a bit of a shock later on in life

Yes. I knew it existed, but thought it was the preserve of a few old dinosaurs who were dying out. We'd been through school being told if we worked hard, we would be the businesswomen and academics of tomorrow. But they forgot to teach it to the rest if the world.

However, I think discovering sexism at a later stage meant I was less willing to accept it and will stand up to it. I think if you go through school never having a break from it, you're much more likely to internalise it and accept it. But then my mother, cousins, great aunts, grandmother all played their parts in me becoming a feminist, not just school, and someone else I was at school with didn't seem to have heard the same messages I did, so perhaps my family background made me more attuned to hearing it. Mind you, she's a professor in her field these days, so even if she didn't hear what I did, it hasn't held her back.

[TheDowagerCuntess]

I went to an all girls' school and loved my school days.

I am a firm believer in single sex eduction for girls, but I don't think it is necessarily the best thing for boys.

We will be looking at single sex for DD, and co-ed for DS.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

However, I think discovering sexism at a later stage meant I was less willing to accept it and will stand up to it. I think if you go through school never having a break from it, you're much more likely to internalise it and accept it

I think there's alot of truth in that. I don't even notice it half the time it literally took til my 30s and joining MN and reading some of the threads to realise just what I have had to put up with.

In a way it's my biggest worry of trying to help as pass the 11 plus with the aim of going to the all girls school. That somehow it's going to result in some massive shock and alot if frustration when she leaves as she discovers the world isn't really like what she's seen.

[BertrandRussell]

I don't get the not being aware of sexism if you go to an all girls's school thing. What about all the time you aren't in school? Didn't you watch telly or read the papers? Didn't you study history, or politics or citizenship?

[Lurkedforever1]

I don't think it's so much a case of not being aware of sexism, more a case of not being aware how much it relates to you personally, or just how bad it can be.

Eg from birth dd has seen me do everything. So by the time she was old enough to be aware that some people consider changing a car tire or diy as a male task, and ironing and cleaning a female task, she was aware that is a load of rubbish. It happens, but it isn't relevant to her and therefore doesn't limit her.

No reason it can't work the same for other types of sexism too, like genitals dictating aptitude for a subject, or the right to equality. Awareness it happens but not something that you accept will happen to you. Obviously inequality will still happen, but as an adult you aren't going to just roll over and accept it.

[NoLoveofMine]

I can see how you could be somewhat shielded from aspects of sexism at a girls' school - you're far more free of stereotyping in terms of subjects, no field of work seems off limits as all passions are encouraged and women who've thrived in all sorts of careers come and give talks and so forth. We are taught we can achieve anything we want and nothing is off limits, which is quite a powerful message to receive throughout school time.

However, my friends and I are very aware of sexism and misogyny. Street harassment started for us all at a young age, plus we've long heard and read sexist comments from many boys at parties and online, how many boys our age speak of girls and women, influence of pornography, misogyny in the media and advertising, focus on appearance of girls and women, so many other issues that being at a girls' school can't hide from you.

Plenty of girls' schools including my own have feminist societies/groups and the schools themselves are aware of the sexism pupils do and will face - some heads have spoken about how best to equip pupils to challenge it.

[ParadiseCity]

I've never accepted sexism despite going to lots of mixed schools and no girl only ones. There seems to be an odd undertone of 'girls schools produce more/better feminists' and I disagree. NoLove do you think that mixed schools don't tell their pupils exactly the same thing about 'you can do anything?

[NoLoveofMine]

Many undoubtedly do. However I've heard and read of so much misogyny at mixed schools, the rise in sexual assaults at schools and the figures for take up of STEM subjects by girls at mixed schools are shocking. There was a documentary a couple of years ago by Professor Alice Roberts in which she spoke to a group of girls and boys in Year 11 at a mixed school. She asked them if they were considering STEM subjects for A Level and beyond - only boys were. She asked the girls why none of them were and answers ranged from them being "too hard" and "just never really thought about it" to "they're for boys". This doesn't seem to be isolated given how poor the take up is at most mixed schools and how many girls study such subjects at girls' schools (the take up of arts subjects is also from what I know far greater amongst boys at boys' schools than mixed).