Girls only schools

[ParadiseCity]

I'm struggling with a potential decision and wondered if anyone would mind sharing their thoughts please...

DD may have the opportunity to go to an all girls secondary school. We have looked round and she loved it. She liked but didn't love the mixed high school (which DS is already at and I think is fantastic).

It doesn't sit right with me to separate children into girls and boys. However I work in a male dominated profession and can see that an environment free from mansplaining and being talked over is very appealing. Just not sure what is for the best.

The other girls were total bitches but there were no limitations imposed on me and that has stood me in very good stead.

This is, in a nutshell, why I think girls' schools are better.

I was mercilessly bullied by boys in a coed school, who were only sometimes supported by the occasional girl.

At a girls' school, there's going to be about double the amount of female bullies, but for me, that'd still have resulted in less bullying.
(And I am pretty sure I would have been spared the sexual harrassment element in an all girls school)

It is irrational to assume that girls are worse than boys. Or that the all girls environment makes them worse.

It is just that if you aren't pushed around and have bubble gum smeared into your hair by boys, then you might more notice the fact that you're never invited to girls' birthday parties and they make nasty comments on your clothes.

Another thread on this board has just reminded me of another way in which girls' schools are excellent - sport. The take up of sport at girls' schools is far higher than amongst girls at mixed I think, with such a variation available and girls feeling able to explore what they like and throw themselves into sports. Though of course far from all girls are sporting, I think far more feel comfortable playing sport and there are so many teams in various sports across all year groups.

Yy NoLove.

Another advocate of all girls schools here too. I did get bullied for a while but believe me when I say it was nothing compared to the bullying DH had at a mixed school. The teachers also sorted it out pretty smartly once they were aware of it. It wasn't bitchy or subtle either.

I'm glad it was sorted out scallops and hope you were able to thrive in your time there after it was!

As you say there, bullying can happen at any school. I think it's due to the misogyny inherent in society and consequent derision of teenage girls that it's highlighted if it happens amongst girls, with all sorts of slurs aimed at them and people describing it as normal, as has even been done in this thread. When boys bully someone at school it's just bullying.

It's also far from inevitable. As I said I've never been aware of any bullying taking place at my school and I know people who aren't in the same "friendship groups" support one another and look out for one another, across year groups as well. It's a very supportive and kind environment.

At my girls school if people were bullied they moved classes, to a nicer group of girls and they found friends there. Yes there were bitchy girls, but you just had to find your group. I went co-ed
later and there were genuine loners there because boys just left them out. Girls never leave anyone out (apart from when they're bullying them obviously, but as I said, where I was this got resolved). Ime anyway!

At the coed girls could do maths, physics, sciences etc but classes dominated by boys. Socially it was quite bad - the usual double standards etc when it came to relationships and if you weren't "hot" you were basically invisible and kind of viewed as "what's the point of you?".

If she likes the all girls I would go with that.

Most girls schools are either grammar or independent schools, aren't they? I wonder if the confidence girls receive is a result of being in selective education, that is knowing or being told they are best, rather than a result of not being around boys?

I don't think it's just that. Growing up, my friends were at all-girl comprehensives (still common in London, and pretty much the norm when I went to school).

I remember the girls at Newnham being particularly studious and confident - and statistically speaking Newnham was slightly easier to get into (since it didn't admit boys). I appreciate that this might have been an admissions bias - but I don't think so.

My experience with single sex schooling was very positive. There were no gender boundaries on subjects and a real sense of support and community.

Yes, there was bitching and bullying but that happens in all schools. There was also a sense of empowerment. No one telling us we couldn't participate in things because there weren't perceived as feminine. The majority of the girls in my year have turned in to very strong, well educated, well rounded women with great careers.

Personally I don't think I'd have done so well in my life so far in a mixed setting.

My brother also went to a single sex school. Total opposite. Very much a lads club, banter banter, mans world, women in the kitchen. And while he isn't now, there were times growing up where I had to tell him to give his head a wobble. While I'll leave the option open for my DS to attend single sex, I won't encourage it.

If I go on to have a DD it might be a different story. Although, my closest grammars are single sex so would give them the same opportunity if they chose to do their 11+

Oh I had a great time! And thrived. It was one particularly difficult year. Bizarrely (whilst we're talking about the other thread) I found a sport at around the same time and suddenly my confidence blossomed.

Bullying was the exception rather than the norm, definitely. And to be honest I was a pain in the arse to teachers and they still supported me at that time. I hope my experience wasn't the exception in girl schools.

That doesn't surprise me regarding sport scallops - it can be great for confidence! Another reason why it's so important for girls not to feel held back or that sport isn't for them.

And to be honest I was a pain in the arse to teachers

I can be. It's one of the reasons I'm not going to be on the Head Girls' Team

Hah no neither was I .

I went to a mixed boarding school and nobody mansplained around me. In fact I'd say the girls had the edge on maturity and additionally (or subsequently?), academics. I came and left without ever feeling once that boys had any more authority on anything than girls. Nobody's ever tried to mansplain at me as an adult either but I'm never on the defensive. I learned lots of communication skills with both boys and girls at school. I've never felt less than equal.

I would never deny that women are not treated equal, I see it happening to others all day long. I have been whistled at and had my ass slapped by strangers in a crowd. But in my life I've never been held back by being a girl or a woman. And I attribute that to positive parents and great relationships with many boys who were simply friends through my childhood and teens.

I'm anti-segregation at every step of life.

Going to a single sex school doesn't mean you don't have relationships with people from the other sex. I have a number of friends who are boys as do all the girls I know.

I'm glad you've not been held back for being a girl or woman but many girls and women are. I have fantastic, supportive parents but that doesn't prevent me suffering from the misogyny which is inherent in society - something you've experienced yourself.

So only negative women get mansplained at, because they're on the defensive and lack communication skills? Right.

No, you're right, it's not about being positive or negative. But it is about communication. I think girls are brought up from a young age to communicate from the back foot. And to defer to men and their opinions. And to be polite at all costs.

All else being equal, if I had a daughter, I'd like her to go to an all-girls secondary.

I was in single sex education from 13 - before that was mixed. Comprehensive.

I still saw boys on the school bus, at swimming club, at Young Farmers and just hanging out round town.

Various activities - some drama, music, language exchanges - were shared with the boys' school and I had half my A-level classes at the boys' school (that depended on subjects.) But mostly, we could just get on with education. Like the stats, we had good percentages doing STEM subjects and sports.

I listen to The Life Scientific on Radio 4, and it's struck me that a lot of the women interviewed went to single sex schools. Some of that is age - women at the top of their careers will be older, and therefore more likely to have been in a grammar school before uni, which would have been more likely to be single sex. Plus I notice it because of my own schooling and being involved with STEM promotion at work. But even so, it still seems like more than I'd expect.

Of course, things aren't all equal, and it'd be better to go to a good mixed school than a poor single sex one, and children all have different needs and preferences, so what's right for one won't be right for another. But my preference is still single sex secondary education for girls.

Thanks for all the interesting comments. I am quite depressed in a way about the fact schools are still full of inequality and it seems to be a given. That said I realise more posts are about MNers childhoods than their children currently.

...Is it better for society that my feminist daughter goes to a mixed school and shows any sexist people they are fools?

Although, the mixed school had far more displays about equality, stonewall posters etc, than the girls school, which had a lot of cake related stuff. Eg 'join Chess Club, there is free cake'. I think I need to visit them again.

My posts were about my own school and what I've heard and read of mixed schools. If your daughter went to a mixed school and was able to challenge and defeat sexist attitudes that'd be fantastic.

I'm not sure Stonewall posters are a good thing from what I know of some of their stances these days. The cake related poster at the girls' school sounds a light hearted and enjoyable way to encourage more younger girls to explore and play chess.

...Is it better for society that my feminist daughter goes to a mixed school and shows any sexist people they are fools?

Unfortunately this works in the same way as "I'll send my wonderful, clever, charming mixed-race DS to a school full of white thugs. That'll show them!"

NoLove, yes I realise the poster was to be appealing, but I notice a lot of encouraging girls tends to = stereotyping. Chess and cake. 'Be a scientist, we make lipstick' - that sort of thing is prevalent and I can't stand it. Eg Chess and snacks would be better but it's always cake or pink fluffiness.

Katherina, I understand, however would you then avoid this by segregating by colour? Of course not. So I find it hard to swallow segregating by gender. It doesnt feel like the feminist way.

I've never noticed any of this at my school. Cake has been advertised with some societies but only in a light-hearted "have some cake" manner. I concur on the stereotyping but I've never noticed or heard of anything like that at girls' schools - the complete opposite. Science is a big thing at mine and the uptake of all the sciences at A Level is high. My experience of a girls' school is the complete lack of this kind of stereotyping and girls being free to explore all interests and talents.

A small point perhaps but it's single sex schools not gender. In an ideal world there'd be no need for single sex schools and I hope to see the day there is no point in them because misogyny isn't rife.

Went to all girls catholic school in Ireland.
Pros:
Girls didn't act like thick twats to impress boys.
Strong humanities results.
Lots of subversive femministy teaching (esp in English dept)
No pressure to tart self up for boys.
Nobody was scared to speak out in class etc. Being smart was a good thing.
Being posh wasn't looked down on either.
Not forced to go out in the cold at lunch/break (I was an undiagnosed asthmatic so appreciated this)

Cons
Sexist religion teaching (but we were free to air our disagreements)
Shocking ignorance of contraception etc due to lack of sex ed
Nasty competitive atmosphere
Low takeup of physics/chem at A-level
Stress which led to friend fallouts

Homophobic bullying
Was only able to relate to boys by flirting with them
Low self-esteem boosted by giving out sexual favours to strangers at parties.
Tendency to get very very drunk on nights out/at said parties in order to let off steam.
Lots of sexist shite from older SLT about acting like "young ladies"

In short, OP, send her to all girls if you think she has the mental strength to cope with it. Read the ethos documents very carefully indeed- religious stuff might have muddied the waters in my school.

nothing your post kinda rings true for me a little.

Except I went to a non religious mixed school. I went from no friends at primary to finally having a few friends except we were a group no one would touch with someone else's barge pole however they were the best friends.

Guys were never interested in me at school not was I interested in them. However they were still a pain In the arse harassing you etc which of course contributed in me spending alot of time thinking if they got the wrong idea it was my fault.thst it was not.to put up with this as no one stopped it.and eventually when I got older like you communicated mainly by flirting and if course putting up with the inevitable consequences you grow up learning is your own fault anyway.

Even now I probably have very little idea of how far is to far as I've never lived without it if that makes sense.

I don't know, Paradise, in that scenario I would probably send my brilliant mixed-race DS to a school with a high proportion of black and mixed-race children!

I don't think there are easy answers - just pointing out the problem with the logic there (that sending a clever, feminist 11 year old into the situation will sort it out). I agree that ideally we would educate everyone together.

Not saying that girls can't thrive in co-ed schools either - I went to co-ed schools and colleges all the way and did well but I did experience sexism and misogyny.

I realize this isn't a hypothetical situation for you though. Difficult one.

Thanks Katherina, you're right I don't really want to add 'solve sexism' to DD's to do list at age 11

I have no doubt she will ace maths and science at any school. She isn't held back by sexism at the moment which is prob why it feels a bit alien. And she is a CHILD before she is a girl. So it does feel a bit jolly hockey sticks. I've always known I would not choose a private school for DC, this isn't private but it still feels a bit like it has that air of so-called privilege about it. I've always told my kids that boys and girls are equal. But this feels like siphoning DD off. Argh. The more I type the less I like the idea despite all the responses to the contrary. I am being the shittest MNer ever I realise.

Interesting article from a (good) few years back:
www.theguardian.com/education/2007/apr/10/schools.uk

Research generally shows that boys do better in mixed sex schools but girls get better results when they go to single sex schools. Back in the 80's I did some academic research on computing/IT as it was being introduced widely into schools at the time. Boys tended to dominate the classes and the teachers enabled it - It is sad that things don't seem to have changed much.

I would go with my gut feeling and also take into account how much your DD favours one school over the other. Will there be logistical difficulties with your DC being a t different schools - different journies, different holiday times etc.