Twitter and where to begin with comments about "terfs"

[MagicalRealist]

Hi, I'm just wondering how to deal with it when people I follow on twitter, whose views I normally agree with and respect, post things about "terfs" and transphobia. As in, is it worth engaging? What can you actually say in 140 characters that could make them think about it more critically when they're clearly at the liberal knee jerk automatic support for transactivism stage?

Its a general question although prompted by something specific yesterday. Someone retweeted comments from people who'd criticised the Mya Byrne "i punch terfs" t.shirt post, calling them transphobic. And there were comments below that in reply to them, mocking the term 'gender critical' as being similar to something the KKK would say about race.

Anyway, I ended up unfollowing the person without saying anything in response to their tweets because I didn't really know where to begin and didn't have the emotional energy to engage properly. It's bothering me that I didn't say anything though and I'm just wondering how other people deal with this kind of thing?

What can you say that might actuallybe constructive as opposed to just registering your disapproval?

The only consistent rule about when to treat trans women as men and when as women is: When it suits them

It suited Bruce to be a golf club member.

It suited Bruce to change the olympic record books to pretend that a woman had won the Ironman or whatever it was, even though as far as I am aware women aren't even allowed to compete.

It suited Bruce to become woman of the year.

They want their cake and eat it, and because they are male, and everyone knows it (despite pretending not to) they get to have it all.

A woman trying to identify as male for one day to apply for membership to a male-only golf club and then demand that they install women's toilets the next day would have her ass handed to her.
Probably she'd not even get them to install bins in the men's toilets, assuming she managed to get the club membership at all.

I don't understand why the IOC needs to change the official records: Bruce Jenner won the decathlon gold medal, in the same way that Jessica Ennis won the heptathlon Olympic gold medal in 2012, and Jessica Ennis-Hill won the heptathlon gold at the World Athletics Championships in 2015. It's not hard, is it?

Or, if Caitlyn Jenner really did compete in the Olympics (because Bruce was always Cait), she should be disqualified for taking part in an event which is not open to women, and she should hand back her gold medal.

I love this suggestion from Donkey. I think it is a nice and clear statement that will help lurkers on their way to peak trans.
Gender identity doctrine is sexist and incoherent. A woman is an adult human female, not a feeling in a man's head.

I was recruited to TERFness by threads on Mumsnet as well. At first I was horribly fascinated by the appalling bigotry, but the strident and crisp and logical arguments won me over.

Yes Olenna - that is a perfect argument about Bruce/Caitlin! If he was always a woman he was not eligible. Give it back!

Perhaps we should start a liberal feminist petition saying that it is transphobic for the IOC not to scrub Bruce Jenner from their records, as he wasn't eligible at the time, being a genuine woman and all that.

Now that would help point out the illogical nature of it as men's privilege is not usually withdrawn in these situations. I can imagine the wording now...

SIGN THE PETITION AGAINST THE TRANSPHOBIC IOC!

We the undersigned demand that the IOC remove Caitlyn Jenner's deadname from the decathlon records. Caitlyn Jenner has always been a woman. We maintain that it is offensive, bigoted, transphobic and transmisogynist to insist that a woman won a man-only event. We demand that Guido Kratschmer of West Germany, the real male winner, be awarded the decathlon Gold Medal of the 1976 Montreal Olympics.

I'd sign that!

I went down the rabbit hole with some true believers over Bruce's sporting achievements and it was an absolute masterclass in cognitive dissonance.

True Believer: Caitlin Jenner won the Olympic Decathlon! Isn't that progressive and amazing that she could achieve that?
Me: No, Bruce Jenner did.
TB: Bruce was always Caitlin
Me: But by all indications, you have to admit that Bruce was male when he won the olympic decathlon
TB: Well, he knew he was Caitlin.
Me: so he should have competed in the women's event? But there isn't a women's decathlon.
TB: BIGOT.
Me:

*sorry, I think it was probably she knew she was Caitlin. Important to get these things right!

"No you're the transphobic bigot!"

You could go round in circles forever.

I was recruited to TERFness by threads on Mumsnet as well. At first I was horribly fascinated by the appalling bigotry, but the strident and crisp and logical arguments won me over.

That's interesting Butter. I knew very little about it and was therefore neutral, but was recruited to terfery after a day on mumsnet. The IOC threads, actually.

What was it that clicked for you?

It's always useful to know what the tipping point is.

Ioc snd dpirts for me - it's judt do crazy, unfair and clearcut. How TAs and supporters can keep saying TW/TGs have no advsntsge an even if they did - it's not winning that's important but being understanding and inclusive. Fries my brain!

It was the Brazilian penis waxing for me. I thought it was simply fucked that the Equal Opportunity Commission said there was a case for discrimination.

I have Caitlin to thank for my first summiting the peak of Mount Transactivist

There was not, is not, and is no prospect of ever being an Olympic Decathlon event for women. The person who won that event in Montreal in 1976 was lionised at the time for being the very model of athletic masculinity and built his career on that. And someone genuinely wanted me to agree that this person had always known that they were a woman, just the same as I am a woman, and that history should be rewritten on that basis!

I can't ever agree to that, no matter whose feelings get hurt in the process.

I've been relieved to find how many feminists are standing up against the "trans cult" if I may call it that - I'd almost given up hope before I came here! It worries me hugely how accepted it seems to be amongst so many (particularly of my age) and how any deviation from the enforced line is met with accusations of bigotry.

This just popped up on my twitter feed

Nice, slug. Bit heavy on the Marxist terminology though. I haven't been indoctrinated properly to understand it.

It was the Brazilian penis waxing for me. I thought it was simply fucked that the Equal Opportunity Commission said there was a case for discrimination.

Now I wish I had a link to that; the trans cultists I used to be on talking terms with (not anymore) always deny that this happens, or claim that's "exceptions" and not "representative" of trans ... dunno if realizing that they are the ones whose activism lead the the EOC making that decision would be the tipping point.

Did you genuinely not realize that this was the consequence of pretending that males could be real women, same as actual women?

That's what I can't wrap my head around; there are people who believe that male rapists won't be locked up with women in women's prisons - but why do they think this won't happen? Actually female sex offenders are sent to women's prison, so why wouldn't males who have been declared to be legally women be?

Wax

Say "99.93% of the population have XX or XY. Male OR female. The rest are genetic mutations. Being one sex but believing you are the other is a psychological disorder, and I won't buy into the enabling of mental disorders".

Is that about 140 characters? I've said similar before.

Collidascope

I just witnessed earlier a radfem challenge a TRA (woman) on what the definition of a 'woman' is.

RF: OK, But what is a woman? How do you define it?
TRA: Google is your friend. A woman is anybody who self-identifies as a woman. Therefore if you ask someone for their Gender, and they say woman, then they are a woman.'
RF: But what exactly is a woman?

The fact she had the nerve to say 'Google is your friend' and then proceed to spout identity nonsense is hilarious, especially seen as asking Google what a woman is results in the top answer being: An adult human female.

I thought Narcissa had problems with her hands so had to stop gaming for a while. So there is a reason for the no gaming. Back at it now though.

Sure, a hand problem could account for the lack of usual output but it doesn't change anything I said. I am am going by Narcissas own account (who, incidentally, doesn't ask for money based on gaming output anymore).

One thing that worries me is that social media can be used, even innocently, to perpetuate canards and common biases. I have had my views changed by social media, but for the most part, there is little persuasion going on.

But the danger, to me, is that constantly seeing things stated on social media reinforces and perpetuates them. In America for example you will often see something like "if good people are allowed to openly carry guns, crime rates will fall - criminals will think twice". Now in reality it is not so simple. Not at all.

Now to try and discuss that using logic and data seems to get you nowhere. But if left unchallenged, as it seems commonsensical, it solidifies. It is the great danger behind common stereotypes.

I think there is at least some value in saying, "No you are wrong". Even bluntly. Just so that it doesn't embed as truth.

"TRA: Google is your friend. A woman is anybody who self-identifies as a woman. Therefore if you ask someone for their Gender, and they say woman, then they are a woman.'"

It is odd. Any definition that includes the very word it is trying to define isn't one I'm going to find very useful. If you try to replace the word woman (within their definition) with their definition of woman you end up with 'a woman is anybody who self identifies as anybody who self-identifies as anybody who self-identifies as...' to infinity.

Just wanted to add that I'm someone who was previously pro-trans and appalled by the 'bigotry' on Mumsnet - and very nearly left Mumsnet because of it - and then actually started listening to the arguments and had my views completely changed. I can't actually pinpoint what it was that changed my mind (which is unfortunate as that might help with others).

I think a few things that stand out that most reasonably sane people would see as wrong are male rapists (with penises) seeking transfers to women's prisons and men competing in women's sport. I would just encourage people to engage, to listen to another viewpoint and to have a conversation - because they don't actually have any valid counterarguments to some of these things - all they can do is shout bigot and TERF back.

I think it's important to be clear about supporting the rights of anyone to wear whatever clothes they want, behave in traditionally masculine/feminine ways etc and not to be discriminated against because of that. Also to be clear about being pro-LGB rights, to separate it from the TRA lobby and point out the conflicts/how this is harming LGB people.

As someone above has said, some of us know 'old school' transsexual people who aren't like this so anything that generalises about/insults all trans people isn't going to fit with their experience.

Thanks for the link, ALittle. Not currently planning to talk to those people again, but perhaps in a year or so I will feel like giving them a second tenth chance.

Just wanted to add that I'm someone who was previously pro-trans and appalled by the 'bigotry' on Mumsnet - and very nearly left Mumsnet because of it - and then actually started listening to the arguments and had my views completely changed.

Did you not feel appalled by the death and rape threats against "terfs" that are everywhere on the internet?

It is one of the things that puzzle me most, people looking at this vile hatespeech and nodding and saying "Oh yes, the people making those threats must be right. Feminists are just the worst"

I think it's important to be clear about supporting the rights of anyone to wear whatever clothes they want, behave in traditionally masculine/feminine ways etc and not to be discriminated against because of that.

That doesn't really help, I am afraid. Remember, terf is short for trans exclusive radical feminist. Radical feminists are, by definition, pro LGB, anti gender roles, et cetera.
(And I was attacked with "terf" screeching and death threats by someone who knew damn well I am a feminist and couldn't care less whether men wear skirts, etc.)