Twitter and where to begin with comments about "terfs"

[MagicalRealist]

Hi, I'm just wondering how to deal with it when people I follow on twitter, whose views I normally agree with and respect, post things about "terfs" and transphobia. As in, is it worth engaging? What can you actually say in 140 characters that could make them think about it more critically when they're clearly at the liberal knee jerk automatic support for transactivism stage?

Its a general question although prompted by something specific yesterday. Someone retweeted comments from people who'd criticised the Mya Byrne "i punch terfs" t.shirt post, calling them transphobic. And there were comments below that in reply to them, mocking the term 'gender critical' as being similar to something the KKK would say about race.

Anyway, I ended up unfollowing the person without saying anything in response to their tweets because I didn't really know where to begin and didn't have the emotional energy to engage properly. It's bothering me that I didn't say anything though and I'm just wondering how other people deal with this kind of thing?

What can you say that might actuallybe constructive as opposed to just registering your disapproval?

Just unfollow or block. You cant fix people who use hate speech, and not in 140 words. They have very strong beliefs. They will either change their mind eventually, or they wont.

I'm not on Twitter, but I've found that the most effective way to argue with genderists online is to calmly state your disagreement with their beliefs and your commitment to material reality. E.g., 'Gender identity doctrine is sexist and incoherent. A woman is an adult human female, not a feeling in a man's head.'

The most important thing is not to be defensive. Do not try to disprove their claims about how you are a hateful person who causes the deaths of millions of trans people with your evil critical thinking skills. Do not argue on their terms or use their language (e.g, use 'trans-identified males', or 'men' instead of 'trans women'). Just keep calmly calling out gender identity ideology for the sexist and nonsensical bullshit it is. If you feel like being cheeky, ask them to define 'woman' (they won't be able to). It's also worthwhile to point out the concrete harm that the movement is doing women and children.

I agree with Datun that engaging with gender true believers, whether they are trans or not, should be done strictly for the purpose of exposing the misogyny and illogic of their movement for the benefit of lurkers. I also agree with the posters who mentioned that you should be careful about any personal details on your account. 'Gender identity' is a religious belief system, and its followers frequently engage in all sorts of unethical behaviour to enforce it, including doxxing, smearing and stalking women they deem heretics.

these are the kind of people who turned up at a peaceful women's march, calling themselves trans-dykes and wielding baseball bats - so they're not the most aware or balanced of individuals.

This is an important point. Some of the males who are now 'identifying as women' are very unbalanced and scary, which means they are as dangerous as any other unhinged, misogynist man. Some have actual records of violence against women and children. The blog Gendertrender.com has documented instances of this:

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/terf-tracker-allison-woolbert-outed-as-violent-sex-offender-resigns-citing-his-unconscionable-behavior-as-a-human-being/).

They are really no different to the MRAs who sit around in basements fantasising about legalising rape and wife beating, except that you could say they are one level further removed from reality. There is no point in engaging with men of this sort on any level - just block.

Did anyone really change anyone's mind on Twitter?

I'm not on Twitter myself, but given the intransigence of people's attitudes on MN I just can't see how that would happen in 140 characters

.... and that being said, I just think that I'd spend my time feeling depressed or full of rage. I like the idea of engaging in order to address lurkers though.

Did anyone really change anyone's mind on Twitter?

You cannot change a TRA's mind. But they are a tiny minority. The people we should try to reach are those who are blindly pro-trans rights without considering their impact on women. It is really important that those of us who are GC don't withdraw from social media and leave the TRA madness unchallenged - especially as our voices are censored in most conventional media.

"If you feel like being cheeky, ask them to define 'woman' (they won't be able to)."

I definitely think this is worth doing. The attempts really highlight the craziness of it. I also think a fair few women would have an issue with the banning of words like 'breast feeding' and the way 'pregnant people' and 'womb owners' are being pushed, if they knew about them.
I also think it's worth pointing out you've nothing against men wearing dresses and makeup and crying over RSPCA ads. But they're still men and to say otherwise is regressive.

shiny

Yes, that's true. I have managed to have a couple of rl conversations with my similarly lefty friends that have not left them completely hating me.

Most people still think transgender people are all harmless gay guys/delightfully camp drag queens and have absolutely no clue about autogynephilia, violent threats etc. TRAs have been very clever in making gay male teenagers the poster children for 'bathroom rights' because they are non-threatening. Then there is the incredulity factor: most people, especially anyone over 30, think of this all as a ridiculous fad and have no clue how close women are to losing their fundamental rights. They refuse to believe that anyone is really going to recategorise men as women simply because they claim to feel female.

Also if - like me - you know 'old school' trans people in real life in the UK, the chances are they are nothing like the TRAs. My views on trans rights would be totally different if they were based only on the trans people I actually know - I still wouldn't think that TW should use women's changing rooms etc - but I would feel far less threatened. None of the trans people I know personally has ever come out with any TRA stuff (though of course I don't know what they may think in private) so I wouldn't know about it.

The TRAs have played this ignorance to their advantage and co-opted many people who are 'pro-trans' just because it is the latest feel-good liberal cause. But these people's minds can be changed. I find that pictures of Danielle Muscato are a useful response to, "Trans women are women". Andraya Yearwood winning a girls' race despite being a boy on no hormone treatment also makes people question the fairness - link here.

I'm not on Twitter myself, but given the intransigence of people's attitudes on MN I just can't see how that would happen in 140 characters

All the intelligent arguments on MN changed my mind.

I'm debating getting into Twitter (my personal circumstances at the moment mean I'm protected from the threat of RL violence), but not sure if it will just be bad for my blood pressure (and another way to waste my time)

One good reason to get onto Twitter is to make other people realise they are not alone.

I am becoming seriously concerned that the trans thing is massively fucking detrimental to people who need significant psychiatric help.

I am a gamer and recently came across something rather disturbing. A famous (in gaming circles) gamer used to have a host of media dedicated to his gaming stuff (mainly videos of him playing games very well). He then transitioned and replaced his output with videos of themselves posing. Literally. Not speaking, certainly no video games it was just posing, or making odd facial expressions or cuddling inanimate objects.

They then made a series of social media statements bemoaning people being transphobic because followers and donations dropped massively. This may sound narcissistic and entitled but more than anything it is heartbreakingly sad because this person clearly needs some sort of help but instead is propped up by their new (smaller but vocal) legion of followers who are encouraging the behaviour and validating the delusional beliefs*.

*And I don't even mean belief about their gender/sex, I mean the belief that somebody who enjoys and pays to watch somebody play video games should automatically enjoy and pay to watch the same person
sit on a chair pulling faces at a camera.

Miffer

The prevalence of trans-people in both IT and gaming is extraordinary.

It must have something to do with one's persona in gaming being an identity, rather than the real you. The fact that you can inhabit different identities, etc.

I wonder if there are far more people who would consider themselves trans, if they had the gamers' outlook. Or whether it's just attracts those types.

Co-morbid mental health issues are also prevalent in trans people, particularly narcissism.

Which might well account for the person in your example thinking that others would be as interested in their posing selfies, as they were in their gaming prowess.

I have to admit, it never ceases to amaze me how transwomen particularly, will post the most ridiculous photos yet fondly imagine that they look wonderful.

One of the characteristics of AGP is the feeling that donning sexy clothing will make one look incredibly sensual and alluring. There seems to be no critical filter.

And I completely agree. The delusion is all encompassing.

You do occasionally get transactivists online who don't sound completely bonkers, but it doesn't take long for the mask to slip. And if you then google them, their other profiles are often completely delusional and batty. They seem just restrained enough to engage in online discourse outside their comfort bubble.

I wonder if there are far more people who would consider themselves trans, if they had the gamers' outlook. Or whether it's just attracts those types.

Gaming probably attracts people who don't feel comfortable in their bodies, as it is a hobby where your body plays no role. It's one of the reasons I got into computer games in my teens. Not having males stare at my developing body was very appealing - in an online game, you just play a male character, problem solved.

However, I don't think the delusions have anything to do with the gaming.

There may well be more trans-identified gamers than non-gamers, but I think the number of deluded people, i.e. trans and trans allies counted together, is probably the same as in the general population.

Datun

Yes, there is definitely something in that. I came across that person while reading about the latest gaming controversy which involves somebody else who identifies as a transwoman behaving abhorrently and blaming the backlash on transphobia.

Miffer

I don't do gaming, I'm too old. but reading several Facebook sites about transactivism, commenters will often point out that the profile pics of activists are of hyper sexualised anime.

I'm treading in unfamiliar territory here, because as I said, I don't game, neither do I look at anime.

But the connection between gaming, anime and transwomen seems very strong.

They often use acronyms in their comments, that are particular to gaming.

Miffer Are you able to link to the two MtTs you mentioned? I'm a gamer too so interested to read about it.

Interesting point about gaming, I am a Zelda fan and there is a gamer who speedruns one in particular. Before he transitioned he found a glitch which was named after him. Now there are accusations of dead naming if it is referenced, not sure what the outcome is. Whether the technique has been renamed.

Before he transitioned he found a glitch which was named after him. Now there are accusations of dead naming if it is referenced, not sure what the outcome is. Whether the technique has been renamed.

Nicely illustrates how harmful this is - he's seriously willing to give up his fame in favour of throwing temper tantrums over "deadnaming"?
Or is that just the transwacktivists?

No, not the gamer just TRAs on the threads I think.

I can't remember where I saw this, but another speedrunner referred to the technique during a speedrun he was doing. This is an established glitch and so is known by name. Then loads of comments about deadnaming began, but not from the deadnamed person, just a load of keyboard warriors. They wouldn't listen to anyone else and it infuriated me so much I just leave.

It is like that video someone linked about a real life twitter argument. I watched a few minutes of it but cannot cope with these young adults who will not listen. So I had to switch it off.

I wonder whether (and how) that gamer will react.

If I had become famous under my own last name, and took on that of a husband and people then hated on someone for speaking of my achievements, I'd be furious.

MrsGWay

That's the person I am talking about in the first post. I didn't know about that.

TinyRick

The current one is Alex Mauer who has been blitzing people with bullshit DMCA's and behaving increasingly unreasonably and erratically. Sid Alpha, Total Biscuit and Jim Sterling have all covered it this week.

The other one is the speed runner whose name is now Narcissa (yes really).

After Narcissus from the Greek mythology, or after Mrs. Malfoy?

I'd guess the second one is more likely to be intended, but the first would fit a very large percentage of MtTs.

I thought Narcissa had problems with her hands so had to stop gaming for a while. So there is a reason for the no gaming. Back at it now though.

I find the deadnaming wierd though. It is seen as erasure but then some trans women are only part time and didn't Caitlyn Jenner still use her golf club under the name Bruce. While the olympic record books had to be amended.