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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male TERFS...

83 replies

Terfing · 20/05/2017 23:55

This is something which has been bothering me for while. As more and more people hit 'peak trans', more and more men are being gender critical. The most famous examples being Tucker Carlson, Ricky Gervais, and Piers Morgan. The other day, Graham Linehan (writer of Father Ted and IT Crowd) tweeted about the misogyny of calling women terfs. The response he received was half negative/ half positive, but the negative posts contained no death/ rape threats (as a lot of attacks on female terfs usually do). For example, the reaction to Jenni Murray was largely negative, with the positive responses being anonymous.

It seems that men are being taken more seriously than women on this issue. Linehan is not experiencing the same backlash Jenni got. I think people see his opinion as more valid than hers.

My point is, and I hate to say this, but we need men to help more people reach 'peak trans' and for the issue to be taken more seriously. It's safer for men to do this as their not in danger of losing their jobs, credibility etc, in the same way that women are.

Here is Graham Linhan's Twitter which shows you what he said: twitter.com/Glinner

Thoughts?

OP posts:
DJBaggySmalls · 21/05/2017 12:36

Interesting the trans activists havent come out in force against Friends yet. Its almost as if they've never watched it.

Laurapalmer90 · 21/05/2017 14:27

It's definitely great to see men speaking out about this though it also saddens me that women are still not taken seriously on an issue until men speak out about the same issue. It's not hugely surprising though as women never seem to be taken seriously on anything.

That Lou Reed stuff is ridiculous. Seriously?! What's next, Friends? The Beatles?

And yes, that National Geographic article is really frustrating to read. It really bothers me that they wrote transgender female not transgender woman. Female is a sex not a gender so therefore cannot be changed. It's infuriating.

WhereYouLeftIt · 21/05/2017 14:48

What's the Friends/Beatles things they could tantrum over?

Also, with regards to bacteria in transwomen's neovaginas - I don't think a low bacteria count was this person's experience - www.refinery29.uk/transgender-vagina-surgery.

Xenophile · 21/05/2017 15:10

The Beatles thing is the song Get Back.

ChocChocPorridge · 21/05/2017 15:25

Yeah - that bacteria one is an outright lie:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2695466/

In particular, microscopy of Gram-stained neovaginal smears revealed a mixed microflora that was even more complex and denser than the one observed in biological women with bacterial vaginosis

Laurapalmer90 · 21/05/2017 15:25

What's the Friends/Beatles things they could tantrum over?

There were two lesbians on Friends (Carol and Susan). Will they be saying that one of them is actually trans? I haven't seen Friends in a while so there might be more stuff.

The Beatles song Get Back has the lyrics - Sweet Loretta Martin thought she was a woman but she was another man.

BMacklin · 21/05/2017 15:36

Yes Terfing! I have thought exactly the same thing. It's terrible that women can't seem to be able to speak about this without being ridiculed or told to shut up, but if you agree that there is such a thing as a patriarchy (which I do) then it stands to reason that until men speak up about this few will listen. Men are the ones who have the most influence and power so of course they need to be engaged in the debate. Not only that but be proactive in getting it shut down. I've got a list in my head of men I want to write to about it precisely because of this.

NoLoveofMine · 21/05/2017 15:37

Holly came from Miami F.L.A.
Hitch-hiked her way across the U.S.A.
Used women's loos at service stations on the way
Shaved her legs and then he was a she
She said, hey cis scum, take a walk on the wild side,
Said, hey TERF, take a walk on the wild side.

DJBaggySmalls · 21/05/2017 16:49

I'm not going to out the Friends stuff. They'll just have to sit through all the episodes and find it.

user1487175389 · 21/05/2017 16:51

It's chandler's Dad being played by an actual woman, isn't it?

LineysRun · 21/05/2017 17:01

And Coronation Street.

MyBeloved · 21/05/2017 17:14

League of Gentleman's 'Barbara' is definitely off the scale.

longcat · 21/05/2017 17:35

Little Britain? 'But I'm a laydeeee'

OlennasWimple · 21/05/2017 17:37

Presumably the Bachelorette contestant stuff stems from There's Something about Miriam, where the (male, heterosexual) contestants were set up to look foolish when the lady that they were competing to win over turned out to be a transwoman? So he didn't just out of nowhere say that this would be his worst nightmare?

NoLoveofMine · 21/05/2017 17:47

This is presumably acceptable, though?

Collidascope · 21/05/2017 17:49

I've sometimes wondered about George from the Famous Five by Enid Blyton. Many of EB's books have already been modernised so Fanny becomes Franny and Dick becomes Rick and spankings (corporal punishment...) become scoldings. Interestingly all the sexism of girls being sent to wash up while the boys go adventuring is allowed to remain. I do wonder though, if the trans activists will ever start applying pressure for George, who hated being a girl so much and claimed to be a boy, to have her pronouns respected and for her to be rewritten as he and him.

TalkingintheDark · 21/05/2017 17:51

But all those replies to Linehan's tweet - virtually all of them condemning him for saying what he said and using the whole "TERF is just a descriptor" schtick (funny how they don't go for the whole "male is just a descriptor" angle then).

There is SO MUCH bullshit out there, and so many people apparently believe in it 100%.

It terrifies me.

But yes, at least he doesn't get told to DIAF. I too am relieved when sane men speak up for us but it sucks that they have to, that they're given more of a platform than we are.

NoLoveofMine · 21/05/2017 17:56

It terrifies me.

It does me as well. The sheer volume of people who are up in arms when anyone points out biological facts is hugely worrying. Linehan got off relatively lightly compared to many women who say similar, but even the volume of responses (and the amount some of them are shared by those who agree) is staggering.

So many girls I know subscribe to it all as well. I posted this in another thread but think it's more relevant here so have asked for it to be deleted there: I managed to make a bit of progress with a friend on this issue (a couple of my closest friends agree with me/the sentiment here but many have entirely taken on board the TRA line and I'd stopped challenging it until recently). Introduced it by discussing how reductive the term "cis women" was when she put that forward when I said how ridiculous it is that we're being told we can't say "women" any more by some. Explained I'm not "cis" and doubt she'd really accept the meaning of this term. I then pointed out the discomfort and unfairness of women being made to cede our spaces (using example of toilets) etc. Won't bore anyone reading with the full conversation but although she didn't come fully on board, she's at least questioning her previous line on this and I feel better for expressing my opinion. It's frustrating when so many have lapped up the notion that anyone who feels this way is a bigot; not easy to challenge and I felt the friend in question was looking somewhat unimpressed with what I was saying at times but hopefully she'll have seen where I was coming from. Then again that she even looked questioning and wasn't comfortable with what I was saying (simple biology and feminism - that to be defined by gender or accept the label "cis" so accept you identify with the gender you're ascribed is reductive) shows how pernicious all this talk is.

user1487175389 · 21/05/2017 18:51

I've had my own social media battle going on recently over 'cis'. Basically I got told to shut up, but I refused. I think all we can do is carry on. Unfortunately, if recent political events are anything to go by, a lot of people are very hard of thinking, but we can't give up the battle for hearts and minds. Well behaved women rarely make history and all that.

YouMayVeryWellThinkThat · 21/05/2017 20:30

One of the episodes of Miranda has her accidentally buy clothes from a shop for transvestite/transsexual males and the joke is that a few people mistake her for a male trying to look female. I watched it recently on dvd and wondered if it would get aired now.

I've wondered about Annie (the redheaded orphan). She's tough, she fights. She gets selected to go to the rich guys house (forgot his name) and he is adamant he wanted a boy but she ends up winning him round. She's ripe for transing surely.

And Anne With An E on Netflix, Anne is another character who I wouldn't be surprised if someone tried to retrospectively transition. I've never read Anne of Green Gables so not sure how it compares but in the TV programme she gets mistakenly adopted by a couple who wanted a boy. She wishes several times that she was a boy and she wants to be able to have the freedoms that the boys have. Also: Pippi Longstocking.

TalkingintheDark · 21/05/2017 20:53

I woke up to all this a couple of years ago - till then I had been blithely unaware, totally wrapped up in dealing with issues in my own life and not really engaging with feminism in the way I had done previously.

For me, it was like waking up and discovering that a cult had taken over the minds of vast numbers of otherwise apparently sane people - as if they'd been brainwashed into joining the Scientologists or something. All these people who you'd ordinarily have a lot of common ground with, people who you'd normally be on the same side as, fighting the same battles with - they've been sucked into this nightmarish cult, and they're so far into it that all they can do is spit venom at you if you don't line up with their distorted thinking.

The people who once you would have relied upon to denounce the cult along with you, they're the ones demanding you too join the cult and demonising you for refusing to. It's insane.

I still don't really understand how this could happen. How the TRAs managed to gain such control of the discourse. How women who spoke up against it right from the start have been so discredited and vilified and ultimately silenced.

Perhaps it's a measure of two things - one, the really appalling level of bone-deep misogyny that still exists in our society - that our society is actually founded upon; and two, the huge amount of denial and cognitive dissonance that people are so used to employing in other areas of life that it's easy to transfer it across to this issue.

For example, I tend to see things through the filter of identifying and healing from abuse, particularly child abuse. What I see is the sheer scale of it, and I look at what the dynamics are that enable it to flourish the way it does. It seems to me there is so much denial about it on so many levels; so many things still now are normalised that IMO are actually abusive (particularly wrt emotional abuse) in the same way that beating children in school used to be normalised, for example, or the right of men to rape their wives.

I find myself deeply alienated by a lot of the attitudes expressed on MN, which seem to me to spring from a perspective of child-hating/child-blaming just as MRAs/TRAs are entrenched in woman-hating/woman-blaming. And yet those attitudes are regarded as normal and healthy by many, people. To me, they reek of denial and cognitive dissonance; but denial by its very nature blinds people to the nature of reality so how do you challenge it?

Still, I wonder what it was/is about the trans issue that causes such phenomenal amounts of denial to coalesce in such great numbers of otherwise sane, rational people; that causes them to flock to the side of people who are so bigoted, so misogynist, so full of hate and utterly divorced from reality (as a cursory look at those Twitter comments demonstrates).

Anyway. Major tangent. Just wondered if anyone else ponders these issues in the way I do!

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 21/05/2017 20:59

Ricky Gervais is gender critical?

If anyone can get away with it it's probably him. What did he say?

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 21/05/2017 21:57

I don't understand the trans activists that say (as in Thecountess's post above) that "cis" men / lesbian women are "running out of excuses" not to have sex with trans women. Surely anyone, whatever their sexual preferences, has the right, in law, not to have sex with anyone they don't want to, for whatever reason, big or small (and also have the right not to have to give a reason for not consenting to sex). Anything less is advocating rape, surely? Am I missing something?

Terfing · 21/05/2017 22:02

Gervais jokes about self-identification in his new tour. He makes lots of digs at Caitlyn Jenner and says "if I say I'm a chimp, I am a chimp". Apparently there's a full section on the issue. I look forward to the DVD!

OP posts:
TalkingintheDark · 21/05/2017 22:32

Not missing anything that I can see, Ineed".

Makes a change for TRAs to be including other men in their rapey targeting, at least.