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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ballet classes

197 replies

Awholelotofhot · 15/05/2017 13:43

I took my two year old to a ballet class today as she loves a dance. I was surprised to find the class was all girls and one of them also had a tutu on! Also it was all very 'graceful' (as I guess ballet is!) however it made me wonder if going to a class like this would start to ingrain in her that ballet is for girls and girls are graceful and pretty etc. Am i over thinking this?

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 19/05/2017 07:35

Hand wringing

LordTrash · 19/05/2017 08:09

I think the tide is turning on this one. Dd's school is doing the Billy Elliot musical as their end of year show and there were at least a dozen year 7 boys trying out for Billy. In my day (early 80s) that number would have been zero.

Similarly, at her musical theatre group, about a third now are boys.

If your dd likes to dance, let her dance. Nothing more to think about.

NoLoveofMine · 19/05/2017 09:56

that Caitlin Moran "if men don't do it must be wrong " argument

Wasn't she making that argument whilst talking about "strip clubs"/pole dancing? Whilst I don't agree with it as a stand alone point, given the context it could have been interpreted as meaning if men aren't being pushed into doing something which is primarily for the entertainment and arousal of women and being sold it as "empowerment" (as women are the other way round) then it "must be wrong". In that sense I'd agree.

I've also never known any feminists to be "joyless" (I spend most of my time on evenings out with my feminist chums in states of mirth) and find this is often a label ascribed by those who want to belittle the arguments (being a "killjoy" for objecting to "a bit of fun" when opposing misogynist jokes etc). I've never heard of any feminist ever trying to do down anything "beautiful"; questioning why anything is seen as "feminine" or "masculine" and why we perpetuate these ideas and as a society bombard children with them isn't the same thing.

I'm not specifically talking about ballet as I don't know enough about it though.

Feminism is about fighting misogyny, violence against women, sexist discrimination, street harassment and so much more. Maybe that is a bit "joyless" as there's not much joy to be had in being subject to any of it.

OlennasWimple · 19/05/2017 11:43

Lass - I love ballet. Adore it. Did it seriously (White Lodge etc) for a long time. Nearly went pro but realised I wouldn't be good enough to be the best. Still try to do it now, though my hips and toes (see above) are increasingly protesting.

I have taken DD to lessons. I go as often as I can to watch performances at all levels (local ballet schools as well as professional companies).

That doesn't change the fact that ballet can be problematic for feminism, particularly in relation to young girls. I bet those sell out audiences watching the Woolf production are not full of five year olds who try to copy the steps at home in their bedroom. Seven year olds don't doodle the plain tunics of most modern ballet, they draw themselves in classical sticky out tutus.

(Ballet can also be problematic for people of colour, but that's another thread)

The OP's original concern was about her very young child and the "princessification" stuff - legitimate concerns, it would appear, in relation to that particular ballet school. As pp have said, there are plenty of ballet schools that wouldn't let a yard of tulle through their doors, never mind encourage the pink and sparkley image. Ballet can be fantastic exercise and has many many positive attributes - not many hobbies are entirely without a downside.

I would always recommend that girls (and boys!) try ballet and see how they get on. I do so in full awareness of the issues that ballet can raise, not trying to sweep them away.

(But I have often said on here that I am a Bad Feminist)

stuntcamel · 19/05/2017 23:50

As for the exercise 'Good Toes, Naughty Toes' - it has absolutely nothing to do with 'pretty toes/ugly toes' and everything to do with teaching children co-ordination and control over their bodies, learning how to point their toes and feet, flex their ankles, and to strengthen their calf muscles and the arches in their feet in preparation for dancing. It is just a handy way of explaining the exercise to 3-year-olds Grin

NeverTwerkNaked · 20/05/2017 06:49

Exactly stunt . Let's get upset about the important things rather than seeing problems with a game when there aren't any

Rainatnight · 20/05/2017 06:50

I know what it means. I just don't agree with it as a way of teaching tiny children in the first ever classes they have about physical movement.

AlexanderHamilton · 20/05/2017 06:57

How would you teach itvthen Rain?

Rainatnight · 20/05/2017 07:05

Long toes/short toes? Uppy toes/downy toes?!

I have no idea, really, I'm not a ballet teacher. And I was just using it as an example of the demands and quirks of ballet and the way that makes it, in my view, not the best first dance class for little girls. I don't have a problem with it after they've had the freedom and creativity of a different kind on dance class in the early years.

Rainatnight · 20/05/2017 07:05

kind OF dance class...

AlexanderHamilton · 20/05/2017 07:09

Have you ever taught a class of pre school children, most of whom posess wonderful imaginations?

Rainatnight · 20/05/2017 07:19

No. I don't think we're going to agree on this one. At that age, I personally don't believe that ballet is the best way to channel that creativity, so my daughter won't be going.

AlexanderHamilton · 20/05/2017 07:32

I've never taught ballet. I have taught drama, singing & creative movement. I personally believe that anything which fires the imagination, encourages posture, rhythm & co ordination & is what a child loves to do is worthwhile.

Awholelotofhot · 20/05/2017 10:15

My objection to good toes/ naught toes wasn't a feminist one really. It just made me sad that my 20 month old couldn't point her toes (didn't understand) and just looked confused and sad when the teacher kept saying they were therefore naughty toes.

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dodobookends · 20/05/2017 11:45

Awholelotofhot Oh dear - a child of 20 months going to ballet - despite what some of the 'baby ballet' franchise marketing tells you, they just aren't ready for a structured activity at that age.

Of course she isn't going to understand, poor little thing. Even if she did understand, then she won't yet have physically developed enough control over her body to follow the instructions. Most dance schools won't take little ones until they are about two and a half or three for that very reason.

stuntcamel · 20/05/2017 11:50

I'm not actually a particular fan of 'good toes/naughty toes' either, but for another reason. You aren't supposed to be pointing just the toes, but the whole foot. It is easy for youngsters to misunderstand, and get the exercise wrong, ending up scrunching their toes and pointing them downwards, but not stretching the ankle and pointing the whole foot as well.

SylviaPoe · 20/05/2017 12:00

DD hadn't even started walking at 20 months! It is very early for a dance class.

BeyondStrongAndStable · 20/05/2017 12:28

20 months! Shock

Awholelotofhot · 20/05/2017 12:33

It's a class for 18m-2.5 years. She just loves to dance so I thought I'd give it a go. She loved it generally and laughed a lot

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Awholelotofhot · 20/05/2017 12:34

Sorry she's 22 months not 20 months. 2 in July

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mummysmellsofsick · 20/05/2017 12:35

Does anyone have any really excellent dance/ exercise/ physical activity class recommendations? DH and I have lots of reservations about ballet, DH is anti football, neither of us are keen on competitive sports generally, and I would treat martial arts with caution for several reasons! Doesn't leave many options for our poor DC. Swimming is ok...

monkeytree · 20/05/2017 12:42

My youngest dd - age 3 pretends to be a tiger in her ballet class! We think it is pitched too much the other way for her and not technical enough. My eldest dd is a fantastic ballet dancer (she doesn't do it anymore) - she also took up karate and found the ballet stood her in good stead for it - balance.

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