Ballet classes

[Awholelotofhot]

I took my two year old to a ballet class today as she loves a dance. I was surprised to find the class was all girls and one of them also had a tutu on! Also it was all very 'graceful' (as I guess ballet is!) however it made me wonder if going to a class like this would start to ingrain in her that ballet is for girls and girls are graceful and pretty etc. Am i over thinking this?

If combat sports are not masculine, what on earth do you think are masculine activities?

If combat sports are not masculine, what on earth do you think are masculine activities?

There aren't any. Activities are activities. But thanks for the patronising question insinuating I'm ridiculous.

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11153402/Schoolgirl-beats-up-her-attacker-in-local-park.html

I suppose you think this girl is "masculine" then.

I think that being able to beat someone up is a masculine ability.

I don't think that anyone is entirely masculine of feminine.

I am not sure what you think masculinity is if you don't think there are any masculine activities.

Tsk! is the best parody of women's floor gymnastics!

That was hilarious! The Vogue bit particularly.

Something can be entirely silly whether masculine, feminine or indeed equine. Prancing is one of those things.

As I can't find the Wayne Sleep clip anywhere (it was a very long time ago) I'll accept Olenna's version gratefully meanwhile - though Wayne Sleep could actually do the cartwheels, not just the prancing.

I am not sure what you think masculinity is if you don't think there are any masculine activities.

I think masculinity and femininity are patriarchal enforced ideals of how people should behave based on their sex, intended to maintain power in the hands of men and oppress women. No doubt you'll mock this but ah well.

You think girls doing martial arts are "masculine". To me they're girls doing martial arts. The girl in the story I linked is a fantastic, powerful girl. Nothing "masculine" about it.

It's not the 'prancing' that is being mocked in that video, or if it is then the whole video is misogynistic.

What is being mocked is men's idea that women's sports require skill. The man couldn't do any of the movements at all, not just cartwheels.

'I think masculinity and femininity are patriarchal enforced ideals of how people should behave based on their sex, intended to maintain power in the hands of men and oppress women. No doubt you'll mock this but ah well.'

That's exactly what I think masculinity and femininity are.

And the most masculine ideal of all is violent competition.

But why should women's gymnastics have to include the prancing element at all? The skilled, athletic, sporty bits are the interesting bits to watch.

'You think girls doing martial arts are "masculine". To me they're girls doing martial arts.

I don't know what this means. Engaging in masculine activities does not turn a girl into a boy.

'But why should women's gymnastics have to include the prancing element at all? The skilled, athletic, sporty bits are the interesting bits to watch.'

Because other people think that those movements from the creative arts are skilled, athletic and interesting to watch, and many think that the male gymnasts should do them too, and are displaying less skill by not doing them.

That's exactly what I think masculinity and femininity are.

If you agree they're artificially imposed notions intended to maintain power with men then how can an activity inherently be "masculine" or "feminine"? It may be portrayed that way to maintain sex roles but it can't actually be so. Yet you expressed incredulity I don't see activities as one or the other.

And the most masculine ideal of all is violent competition.

Martial arts teach discipline and the girls I know who do it feel fit and confident. I have no idea why that should be the preserve of boys or be deemed "masculine". It also makes the two I know who are experienced and very skilled in it feel a lot more empowered when faced with street harassment; not that they've used it (as the girl in the link was able to) but knowing the power element of the harassment is less effective on them. It's not "masculine" at all.

I don't know what this means. Engaging in masculine activities does not turn a girl into a boy.

I have no idea where you've got this from. I was talking about activities being supposedly "feminine" or "masculine" not "turning a girl into a boy". You said you agreed femininity and masculinity are descriptions of traits society has decided apply yet are now for some reason talking about "turning a girl into a boy"? I'm rather lost.

You said martial arts are "masculine". I said girls doing martial arts aren't doing anything "masculine" as I don't see activities as being "feminine" or "masculine". Girls doing martial arts are girls doing martial arts, not girls doing a masculine activity.

I don't know what you mean by inherent here.

If you mean, are males born with some kind of predisposition to act in a violent way to other human beings, then no. Masculinity refers to rules imposed by society.

But we live in a society which has come from a long tradition of males using violence to oppress other human beings, including women. Competitive violence is coded as masculine in our society and very many others, and seen as superior to feminine traits like compassion. What masculinity entails already exists. We're not starting from a blank state.

Creating a non sexist society is not just about saying, all these different social ideas exist, let's just let men and women do all of them and that's fine.

We have to actually scrutinise the values of masculinity that have moulded so many activities that already exist. It is a very good thing to learn self defence. I don't think it justifies accepting that a sport exists where humans kick each other in the head, leading to injury and death of athletes, and we watch this as a competition in the Olympics, or pretending that doesn't exist because of our masculine history.

I would never have raised either my son or daughter to watch or participate in such a sport.

What's wrong with masculinity isn't primarily that it teaches boys and girls to be different. It's that the values of masculinity are ones that no human being should hold, because they're designed to harm and control other human beings.

'Girls doing martial arts are girls doing martial arts, not girls doing a masculine activity.'

Then there's no need to bring examples of girls doing it into it. It's a discussion about whether or not martial arts are socially ascribed as masculine values.

There is nothing masculine about martial arts. They're very popular at my (all girls) school

Not what I said. I said these sports are founded on masculine aggression but are apparently perfectly fine and not to be questioned ( other than by Sylvia) .

On the other hand there are posters falling over themselves trying to find something to criticise in female ballet dancers and female gymnasts.

Meh DD does cheerleading and there are no boys in the group. It's not very pink but quite sparkly. She didn't want the personalised glittery tshirt(and I wasn't too keen on paying for it anyways) so she wears grey leggings and a pokemon tshirt.
She also does a football club where she is the only girl. Outfits are either football outfits or the school PE kit. She did ask for a pair of football boots though.
The main thing for me is that she's happy and she enjoys it.

I can't see what there is to criticise about girls doing martial arts, unless people are also going to criticise boys doing the same.

On the other hand there are posters falling over themselves trying to find something to criticise in female ballet dancers and female gymnasts.

The majority of posters are saying there's nothing wrong with ballet. Two or three posters with interesting concerns isn't posters falling over themselves trying to find something to criticise. Also, no-one is criticising the ballet dancers. They're questioning whether there are roles enforced by the pursuits.

Then there's no need to bring examples of girls doing it into it. It's a discussion about whether or not martial arts are socially ascribed as masculine values.

I asked whether you thought the girl in the link was "masculine" since you've deemed martial arts masculine. I think she's another example of a powerful, inspiring girl.

As someone who did a lot of ballet, and still does it when I can, it SUCKS that there are so few boys :( it sucks that in order to get to a level where you could dance professionally you need to attend one of a very small number of pre-pro schools, and it sucks that ballet is still viewed as girly :( When I have kids they will be put in ballet, at least to try it, even if I have boys. Girls need boys to partner properly, and there are never enough lol also ballet training has gotten a ton safer and better, so dancers aren't supposed to be hurting themselves anymore. Also some children will not have the facility to reach a high level (natural turnout range, flexibility, foot shape for girls, ankle mobility) but that doesn't mean they should suffer with bad training.

This won't get better until parents put their boys in ballet, and they won't until it becomes less girly, bit of a catch 22 :(

side note, does anyone have thoughts on whether it's this way because ballet isn't viewed as a sport?

Yes I can see where you are coming from. Sport is traditionally male - therefore must be a good thing, must get more women involved.

Ballet is an art requiring lots of talent, hard work and dedication. There are more roles for women than men so there will always be more women than men. It's an activity which involves women more than men- so let's rubbish it.

Skeletally thin sportswomen are just fine but slim ballet dancers, well within normal body mass index, are starving themselves.

Loops I think you make good points but don't think there's anything wrong with being what's deemed as "girly" - girls or anything associated with girls should never be seen as lesser.