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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Feminist group-man insisting on men being "involved"

110 replies

TheBoyWhoWouldntHoeCorn · 03/05/2017 00:55

Hello, I am a long time on and off lurker on feminist chat

On a local community page on Facebook a woman has just suggested starting up a feminist group/meetings

A few comments in, a man has come along and written the following

*If it's a meeting for gender equality (which effectively IS what feminism means) then men HAVE to be involved in the discussion. Especially if their aim is to effect change.

If, however, it's a women's group to discuss and air women's problems to cleanse and relieve frustrations, then that's entirely different and of course it could be just for women.

To bar one gender from a gender equality group is, clearly, completely counterproductive to the aim. And entirely hypocritical*

I am so angry I can't articulate how to respond. Can anyone help me with a kick ass response please?

OP posts:
Original poster
TheBoyWhoWouldntHoeCorn · 03/05/2017 00:59

Sorry bold fail

If it's a meeting for gender equality (which effectively IS what feminism means) then men HAVE to be involved in the discussion. Especially if their aim is to effect change. If, however, it's a women's group to discuss and air women's problems to cleanse and relieve frustrations, then that's entirely different and of course it could be just for women. To bar one gender from a gender equality group is, clearly, completely counterproductive to the aim. And entirely hypocritical

OP posts:
user1491572121 · 03/05/2017 01:04

Just tell him to fuck off.

When the group starts, block him. Easy. Don't sweat over some weirdo behind a keyboard.

venusinscorpio · 03/05/2017 01:07

Tell him feminism is not about "gender equality" but about the liberation of women from patriarchy. And give him a long second wave reading list before he can join in.

Datun · 03/05/2017 01:08

Feminism is not about gender equality. Otherwise we will be advocating that men become prostitutes, get raped and killed by their partners at the rate of 2 a week. We would be advocating that they have a 20% pay cut, get FGM and suffer honour killings.

Would also be on board with allowing 100 million male foetuses be aborted before they're born.

It's not and never has been about equality. Clearly, 'equality' is entirely the wrong word and wholly misleading.

It's about liberating women from the oppression they suffer at the hands of men.

And you can bet your bloody life that the man you are talking of will absolutely want to get in there and disrupt it.

Because whilst you are all talking about abortions and menstruation, he couldn't give a shit, it affects him not at all. But if you are advocating for women to be liberated from all these oppressive acts, it means men are being questioned and held up to scrutiny. And that is not something they are prepared to allow.

OlennasWimple · 03/05/2017 01:09

What venus said.

Then share a meme about mansplaining

venusinscorpio · 03/05/2017 01:09

He might just be being an obnoxious troll though. Some men find that hilarious.

MyNameIsntTaken · 03/05/2017 01:12

It's true. If there is sexism, then men should hear about it. If women aren't being treated fairly, men should hear about it. There are plenty of men who are feminists too.
How can things change if only half the people who want to hear from you are allowed to hear from you?
I just don't get it, so do explain it to me if I've got that wrong.

Of course, if he's a troublemaker and saying he wants to come purely to get a reaction that's different, but you won't know that yet.
Plenty of men care about gender equality and would class themselves as feminists, want to help, and they shouldn't be barred from these things, that will just alienate people or make people feel like it's not something they want to be anywhere near.

KickAssAngel · 03/05/2017 01:14

This should do.

Feminist group-man insisting on men being "involved"
venusinscorpio · 03/05/2017 01:16

There are plenty of men who are feminists too

Entirely a matter of opinion. Not one I share. Men tend to centre their own interests and don't listen to women. Women are socialised to listen to men. It's ok for us to have our own movement where we set the agenda.

KickAssAngel · 03/05/2017 01:17

MyName - I'm under the impression that there are plenty of opportunities for men to educate themselves and find out those things, without insisting that women have to educate them. They could, for example, look at the pay gap as published by ONS and/or Forbes, and then try to DO something about it at their own place of work.

And they could then allow women some privacy to discuss issues without insisting on being there.

MyNameIsntTaken · 03/05/2017 01:28

I have always seen it as similar to when white people got involved in race issues, even marching alongside black people during the worst times in places like America. Don't have to actually be something to feel the way they're treated is wrong and want to get more involved with fighting it.
It's not exactly like race issues obviously, but just as an example.

So many men couldn't care less or just roll their eyes when people say anything about this stuff, i just think it should be encouraged when some want to get involved. Realistically, many will have daughters, sisters, mother's etc so should actually care more than they do, as it is only a handful do.

KickAssAngel · 03/05/2017 01:34

There's a very big difference between being a welcome ally, and barging in insisting and telling people where they're going wrong.

Imagine if a white person started saying "well, you can only be fighting for equality if you do it MY way and I HAVe to be there, and you HAVE to listen to me". It's horrifically insulting, and typically only done by people who want to continue the inequality.

OlennasWimple · 03/05/2017 01:36

Yeah, I'll happily march for black rights. I won't insist I need to be in the room to talk about the issues because I'm white and without me they won't get anything changed

KickAssAngel · 03/05/2017 01:36

And one part of feminism IS a safe place to vent about the inequality without have the dominant patriarchy being represented. So, women's only groups are pretty important.

MyNameIsntTaken · 03/05/2017 01:41

Ok i understand better now. So if he had worded it something like "I'm a man but very interested in joining you. Feminism has always been a cause close to my heart and would love to try and be part of the change"
It would come across very differently.
I do think for things to change men do have to be involved though. For example, getting men on board with hiring more women in certain positions and paying equally, because as it is at the moment it's mostly men who decide these things and if they don't listen to women, we're pretty much fucked forever.
Just like with race issues, it took a few people in positions of authority to open the doors to change. Those men in power need to be involved for changes to be made, otherwise it's just an endless cycle of people saying they're listening to women but nothing actually changing.
Just look at the heels to work thing that happened recently. Im sure if more women were involved in that decision or the men had more empathy for women, it would have gone differently.

KickAssAngel · 03/05/2017 01:44

You're right - men do need to actually step up and make some changes. But a man who decides to create HIS definition of feminism, and that HE needs to be there even if not wanted and that HE is going to put down the idea of women talking about inequality, is absolutely nothing to do with being an ally who wants to help.

A little humility, along the lines of "I don't really get it. How can I help?" would be very different.

TransAndProud · 03/05/2017 01:44

Sorry but these sort of groups need to start thinking about how they include and promote trans-people on a more holistic/humanistic level. You can't restrict such important matters to 'pure' cis gender types.

MyNameIsntTaken · 03/05/2017 01:49

I had never thought of it like that before, even though i have seen so many trolls demand "men's equality rights and to be involved" and known they were just being assholes. They were more obvious though.
So this guy could either be the "silly little women, let me take control now" type or the type that takes joy out of belittling women.
God, now I'm thinking about it more it's actually more awful than it seems on the surface. Think of a woman who's left a controlling man and feminism has helped her find her voice, then you get guys like this coming along trying to control again. Not just controlling relationships, even other family members or colleagues.

OlennasWimple · 03/05/2017 02:44

Yy, MyName - intent (and thus tone) is everything

numberseven · 03/05/2017 03:08

Sorry but these sort of groups need to start thinking about how they include and promote trans-people

No they don't. Trans people can promote themselves, it's not women's job to do that for them.

Gallavich · 03/05/2017 04:29

Sorry but these sort of groups need to start thinking about how they include and promote trans-people

Why?

on a more holistic/humanistic level

This sounds fancy. What does it mean?

You can't restrict such important matters to 'pure' cis gender types

I think that the 'important matters' of feminism relate to female people, not 'pure cis gender type' women. Of course I believe that only female people are women and women are all female people, I don't have much time for assertions of 'purity' or 'gender identity'.

WipeYourFeet · 03/05/2017 07:12

Well said Gallavich
All I could think of is: oh here is another male coming along and telling females what to do Hmm

noblegiraffe · 03/05/2017 07:18

Just send back 'from your tone and wording you sound like part of the problem, not part of the solution'

ladyballs · 03/05/2017 07:23

Trans, start your own group. Women (no need for the cis qualifier) owe you nothing.

WellErrr · 03/05/2017 07:25

No they don't. Trans people can promote themselves, it's not women's job to do that for them

Yep.

OP he sounds like an arsehole. I'd just block and move on.