Feminist group-man insisting on men being "involved"

[TheBoyWhoWouldntHoeCorn]

Hello, I am a long time on and off lurker on feminist chat

On a local community page on Facebook a woman has just suggested starting up a feminist group/meetings

A few comments in, a man has come along and written the following

*If it's a meeting for gender equality (which effectively IS what feminism means) then men HAVE to be involved in the discussion. Especially if their aim is to effect change.

If, however, it's a women's group to discuss and air women's problems to cleanse and relieve frustrations, then that's entirely different and of course it could be just for women.

To bar one gender from a gender equality group is, clearly, completely counterproductive to the aim. And entirely hypocritical*

I am so angry I can't articulate how to respond. Can anyone help me with a kick ass response please?

"It never fails to amaze me at how some men think they have the right to demand access to women's only events and spaces. It's sheer arrogance. "

Its more baffling to me why some women think its a good idea and let it happen.

JaxingJump wrote - "I don't know how you expect to progress women's equality without everyone on board, including men."

Most laws and social attitudes do not need everyone to be on board before they can change.

I do not see why improving life for women could not be achieved with only enough people being on board with feminism. As legislation is passed by a majority of MP's voting in favour, feminists should and do lobby male MPs, because a disproportionately large number of MPs are men. British feminists have to persuade fewer than a thousand powerful men that feminism is the best way forward for women. Therefore, it does not seem unrealistic to me that feminism has the potential to make massive progress without everyone having to be on board.

I do understand that only passing laws will not end women's oppression but I think more women-friendly laws would gradually increase social disapproval and isolation of men who don't get on board with women's equality, whether those men like it or not.

Some people believe that if men do feminism they will add some magical ingredient that will make feminism succeed where it has failed until now. This idea is not the solution to women's problems; instead it's actually part of the male entitlement problem that feminism is trying to solve.

VestalVirgin wrote - "Women are the only oppressed group who'd be daft enough to seriously suggest asking the oppressor for permission to liberate themselves, and expect such a permission to be granted."

Liberation on the oppressor's terms is not liberation.

Liberation on the oppressor's terms is not liberation.

That's why language is so important. Talking about equality does not address the issue. It's a scaredy-cat way.

It is about oppression and liberation.

And it's no good baulking at the eye rolls that those words generate.

My feminist group holds regular all woman meetings and various occasional mixed events, plus a mixed book group. Works very well. There's plenty of opportunity for men who want to be involved to learn and help, and indeed some do. But we have maintained the crucial female space for consciousness-raising and support.
Occasionally we get men saying they won't come to our mixed events because they are offended by the fact that we have women only ones. Naturally that makes me very sad because men like that are exactly what we need to make our movement truly liberatory

I think that sounds perfect Countess. Sad about the poor menz who feel excluded and don't want to come in protest though.

Dave (not his real name) in his infinite wisdom has come on to the group chat this afternoon to make us gals aware of a fundamental error we appear to have been making for some time now

The word feminist really does make my skin crawl.. you picture a stereotypical feminist as a man hating bra burner. i think you need a new name

Marvellous

I think women aren't going to be required in this new (not feminist but name Dave likes) group for women as the guys seem to have it all covered

He sounds like a real prince. What a loss to feminism! Please, please, theboy, tell us you told him to take a running jump? I can only imagine the ensuing butthurt - "feminists are so MEAN. I was only trying to help! They're so misandrist!"

jaxingjump, do you honestly think that Dave here would have a valuable perspective to bring to the group? Because what I think Dave wants is for women to STFU.

Tell him you are reclaiming the name feminism for all women.

Could you suggest to Dave that everyday feminism might turn out to be just up his street and they'd undoubtedly love his wonderfully insightful BTL contributions? (Evil cackle...)

Kinda proves the first reaction to his posting was exactly the right one...

I think women aren't going to be required in this new (not feminist but name Dave likes) group for women as the guys seem to have it all covered

Here's an idea: Why not let him join and go to one meeting, then everyone starts to trickle out until it is only Dave and Dave's dude friends while you schedule an actual feminist meeting elsewhere?

That way the dudes are busy with their [name Dave likes] group and won't get in the way of real feminism.

Men do not need to be included. It's a feminist group, where women can talk and discuss ways to make their lives a little bit better. Men don't need to have an opinion or to be in agreement. It's really non of their business.

Please post this!

Another guy has chimed in saying a "volunteer" man should be present "for balance" if for example women were discussing something like abuse they might be suffering

I imagine him sitting in the corner with a frowny face and a whistle and a sign saying "NAMALT" and blowing the whistle and waving the sign if women forget to NAMALT. Maybe a 3 strikes and you're out approach as well

Let him come to one meeting and see what he has to say. Surely that's fair. If he's a prick you can all wool him

He's already proved he's a prick so why on earth would they have him there?

It's all really none of his business.

Odds on if you said he could come he wouldn't. I have seen it before - they want to make a fuss, make it all about them, "double standards" blah blah but don't ever actually turn up if invited

I think Dave needs to set up his own group, rather than let women do the hard graft of establishing and maintaining it, while he swans in and out with his condescending bullshit.

Perhaps whoever set up the group could outline 5 statements, or something, that you have to agree to? For example:

• Do you believe that the patriarchal oppression of women exists?
• Do you believe that saying NAMALT is derailing and hampers discussion?
• Do you believe that women have the right to discuss their oppression without a male presence?

Dave is a dick.
Don't be like Dave.

He has walked in to a group that discuss a 100 issues faced by women and in 1 post made it all about him then wonders why men are not included. He has man blindness

There really isn't any point engaging with Dave and his ignorant ilk.

Tell him to fuck off and then block him. If you can't block him, ignore him - he'll enjoy that

Dave isn't a feminist. He's ignorant and a shit stirrer. Engaging with him won't convert or enlighten him at all, it will simply please him.

Dave is a total dick, who feels himself equipped to tell women how to achieve his version of what they need. Tell him to fuck right off, and not to come back.

I am always suspicious of men who make a big thing of being feminists. The two men I would classify as feminists never identify as such. No, I'm judging them by how they behave. My DH, a SAHF, would have rather stuck pins in his eyes than join a feminist group.

Thank you so much for your replies, they have made me properly chuckle when I have started to feel seriously depressed, as it can seem so utterly pointless trying to challenge this shit

I found MN feminism chat about 6 years ago when DS2 and DS3 were tiny, and am so grateful I did, I have loved reading, listening and learning from so many incredibly wise women here

I stepped away from the Facebook group yesterday as I had to crack on with stuff, but came back today to more bullshit about "balance" and so on

I have pointed out that it's a women's group so why oh fucking why would it be called that if it was for men also? It wouldn't ever ever enter my consciousness to consider or insist on joining a new men's group as a woman, why would it?

Anyway I've said the guys should come along to the group and give us some "balance" on menstruation, pushing babies out of our vaginas, mastitis, ovarian cancer, motherhood, comfortable bras, post birth incontinence and so on

I have ignored Dave, someone else told him to basically STFU though

@FlossyMooToo

I once patiently explained to a man how many Tampax we had to use per period because he thought it was 1. 1 Tampax per period. (I mean fucking seriously you can buy a box of 48 use your fucking brain)

I think I gave him TMI because he never spoke to me ever again.