Feminist group-man insisting on men being "involved"

[TheBoyWhoWouldntHoeCorn]

Hello, I am a long time on and off lurker on feminist chat

On a local community page on Facebook a woman has just suggested starting up a feminist group/meetings

A few comments in, a man has come along and written the following

*If it's a meeting for gender equality (which effectively IS what feminism means) then men HAVE to be involved in the discussion. Especially if their aim is to effect change.

If, however, it's a women's group to discuss and air women's problems to cleanse and relieve frustrations, then that's entirely different and of course it could be just for women.

To bar one gender from a gender equality group is, clearly, completely counterproductive to the aim. And entirely hypocritical*

I am so angry I can't articulate how to respond. Can anyone help me with a kick ass response please?

IME what most men absolutely will not do is acknowledge their own sexist attitudes. 'Allies' like to tell women that they are good guys who've never benefitted from sexism in any way or had a single sexist thought in their lives. Oh and they have some great suggestions as to how we could be better feminists. FUCK OFF.

Men have had hundreds of years to sort it out. They have had the power and the time, but still don't see a problem, aren't bothered about it or don't know how to solve it. What use are they to feminism?

It seems to me that the man described in the OP is already laying down his rules about what feminism should be and how feminists should behave, before he has even joined the feminist group. It will only get worse for women if he joins the group.

My experience of feminist groups is that they are a way for women to:
(a) analyse women's personal experiences of sexism and misogyny
(b) set a feminist agenda for women's liberation from patriarchal oppression
(c) inform and influence the powerful people who make laws and control finances.

Is a random man likely to be able to contribute positively to women's understanding of being oppressed because of femaleness? No.

I think that the participation of men in setting the feminist agenda is unhelpful and also unnecessary for ensuring that feminism eventually succeeds in its goal of improving the lives of women and girls by liberating women and girls from patriarchal oppression.

Is a random man likely to be exceptionally talented in his ability to lobby the people who hold power to persuade them to end patriarchal oppression of women? No.

One of the reasons why women have not yet achieved liberation from patriarchal oppression is because too many anti-feminist men have negatively interfered with feminism, not because too many allegedly pro-feminist men have been prevented from helping feminism.

I agree vesuvia. I also think that feminist groups are a place where women can state what they think and feel, honestly, without men telling them they can't think or feel that way. I think women are so used to having everything in their lives policed by men that having a truly female space, where no one is going to tell them they're overreacting or overthinking or man bashing or whatever is incredibly liberating. For many women just having that space improves their lives.

Sorry but these sort of groups need to start thinking about how they include and promote trans-people on a more holistic/humanistic level. You can't restrict such important matters to 'pure' cis gender types.

Huh? How is that even relevant to the thread?

Sheesh. A potential group for women and before it's even organised there are people lining up with reasons why those women should not be allowed to have a group unless they actively search out and include trans people and centre their issues and men's issues and centre their issues.... isn't that a tiny bit of a giveaway that the massive problem for born women - I don't like 'cis' and don't use it - is that they are expected to put their own needs, feelings and issues aside to prioritise and sort out everyone else's? And that demonstrates very clearly that women are seen as inferior, unimportant, there to service others and without the right to meet without other higher status people setting their agenda and setting them right?

The belittling of the guy's 'but if you're only going to get together to gossip, whinge and talk about periods 'cleanse and relieve frustrations' says it all. If that's the case then he gives permission that 'just' women may talk about that without supervision. Which is very big of him I'm sure.

This guy is not going to be any help and he's going to be an active pain in the bum.

Thank you for all the helpful suggestions! I have borrowed some of your wise words to make my views clear

But now part of me wonders if I should have just simply said fuck off

Another guy has chimed in saying a "volunteer" man should be present "for balance" if for example women were discussing something like abuse they might be suffering. Unfuckingbelievable

Seriously I despair of this shit

And I posted the mansplaining meme kickass, couldn't resist and now I am being told I am sexist and that mansplaining is deeply offensive

A man telling women they HAVE to include men in their women's group is fine though

That should say using the term mansplaining

TheSparrowhawk

I'm not disagreeing with anything you have said. Something about the OPs post made me think that this man's presence is something of a foregone conclusion.

I have the mental image of him showing up ready to dismiss women's concerns. And I know the presence of a man changes the dynamic instantly. I was more thinking about the other women in this group and how that man's presence will alter things. Unless they are fairly radical women, there is a chance that he will be centred by some of them.

I wanted to make that difficult for them. I'm not suggesting it would make it difficult for him necessarily, but it would reduce any support he had.

If it's a radfem group, he stands no chance anyway.

I've only ever heard men say mansplaining is offensive. If a woman said it she must be a handmaiden, so that provides all the 'balance' the group 'needs'

The 'for balance' thing betrays how these men really feel about feminism. In their eyes the experiences and viewpoints of women are there to be questioned and debated, not accepted. And if they decide that actually women have nothing to complain about then it's game over, they've stated the way things are and women have to shut up.

Another guy has chimed in saying a "volunteer" man should be present "for balance" if for example women were discussing something like abuse they might be suffering

HAhahahahHAHAhahAHAHAAHAHAHAAhHAHAHAhaahahaa

That's awesome.

I'd let them know that if a group has been set up for a particular set of people e.g. feminists or indeed female feminists then it is permissible for them to say that men cannot come because they don't meet the criteria 1) they are clearly not feminists according to how the men have written their comments and b) not women. Maybe it needs to be stipulated on the discussion that it is women only.

There is info on the citizens advice website about this if they need proof that women ARE allowed to bar men!

….and yes maybe you should then end it 'fuck off byeeeee'

Exactly what Sparrowhawk just said.

I don't know how you expect to progress women's equality without everyone on board, including men. It seems a bit like pissing into the wind if we don't educate everyone about the issues. And to sneer at men that are showing an interest at least, or making them the enemy just because they MUST have ulterior motives seems like cutting off your nose.

I think we all have a lot to learn. Not least men but I don't know who is going to help them understand or see different perspectives if we laugh at them even trying.

JaxingJump

I don't think anyone is saying men can't learn. But the men in the OPs situation are clearly not those men.

I bet they don't want to understand or see different perspectives. I bet they want to persist in putting forward their own perspective and trying to make the women in the group understand their point of view. But I could be wrong.

I don't think there's a need to sneer at these men or make enemies of them. I do think it's absolutely fine to say, no, we disagree, we don't want to include men in our discussions.

He thinks that if women want to talk about their experience of abuse, there should be a man there for "balance"?

Holy fucking crap, OP! That's beyond unbelievable. I can think of one, and only one, type of man who would make that kind of remark, and that's a man who is himself an abuser and wants to defend his "right" to continue to abuse women. No normal man (and thankfully we've had a few pop up on this thread - Newdaddie, Dervel, Myname - who didn't get it at first, but then the penny dropped) would say a thing like this.

They could have joined and just listened, and no one would have been any the wiser. But no. They had to announce they are men and need to be there.

They could have joined and just listened, and no one would have been any the wiser. But no. They had to announce they are men and need to be there.

They don't realise it, but they are proving the point about why we need feminism. A woman using the word 'mansplaining' is deeply offensive, but a man barging in and telling women how to do feminism is fine and dandy

Men do not need to be included. It's a feminist group, where women can talk and discuss ways to make their lives a little bit better. Men don't need to have an opinion or to be in agreement. It's really non of their business.

I don't know how you expect to progress women's equality without everyone on board, including men.

How about just like any other oppressed group rebelling against its oppressors?

Communist revolutions didn't usually ask capitalists for permission before doing their thing, you know?

Women are the only oppressed group who'd be daft enough to seriously suggest asking the oppressor for permission to liberate themselves, and expect such a permission to be granted.

Seriously. Men made all this effort to build and maintain patriarchy, and now you want to meekly ask for permission to dismantle the work of their hands?

And to sneer at men that are showing an interest at least

He's not "showing interest", *JaxxingJump^, he's making demands. Why should every women's efforts be centered around men? Why can't women focus on themselves for once in a while?

Women are the only oppressed group who'd be daft enough to seriously suggest asking the oppressor for permission to liberate themselves, and expect such a permission to be granted.

That's it in a nutshell.

It never fails to amaze me at how some men think they have the right to demand access to women's only events and spaces. It's sheer arrogance.

And yet, it happens so often, I really don't know why I'm surprised any more.