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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Feminist group-man insisting on men being "involved"

110 replies

TheBoyWhoWouldntHoeCorn · 03/05/2017 00:55

Hello, I am a long time on and off lurker on feminist chat

On a local community page on Facebook a woman has just suggested starting up a feminist group/meetings

A few comments in, a man has come along and written the following

*If it's a meeting for gender equality (which effectively IS what feminism means) then men HAVE to be involved in the discussion. Especially if their aim is to effect change.

If, however, it's a women's group to discuss and air women's problems to cleanse and relieve frustrations, then that's entirely different and of course it could be just for women.

To bar one gender from a gender equality group is, clearly, completely counterproductive to the aim. And entirely hypocritical*

I am so angry I can't articulate how to respond. Can anyone help me with a kick ass response please?

OP posts:
JaxingJump · 03/05/2017 07:27

I think he has a point. I think the point of it all is ultimately equality but we are so focused on segregating ourselves to fight for our rights that I think we often miss the point of it all.

WellErrr · 03/05/2017 07:33
QuentinSummers · 03/05/2017 07:51

Oh OP how annoying! What a prat. He's clearly been learning from Philip Davies. Ugh.

thatstoast · 03/05/2017 07:56

Tell him to come along! First topic is menstruation.

ShotsFired · 03/05/2017 08:01

You could just let him join. if he is a troll he'll get bored pretty quickly once his initial smugness wears off; or he'll get himself banned for breaching the rules.

If he's genuine, you may have just found yourselves a real ally.

I really don't think saying feminism is now NOT about gender equality and IS about escaping the patriarchy is helpful.

WateryTart · 03/05/2017 08:09

Sorry but these sort of groups need to start thinking about how they include and promote trans-people on a more holistic/humanistic level. You can't restrict such important matters to 'pure' cis gender types.

I find cis offensive, please don't use it.

And, no, women don't need to be told what we need to think about. We are capable of thinking for ourselves, thanks. Men have been telling us what to think for far too long.

BigDeskBob · 03/05/2017 08:25

Women can meet and talk about anything that interests them. Other people don't get to decide on the membership or the agenda.

Women can say no to men.

DJBaggySmalls · 03/05/2017 08:57

What is it about the word 'no' that men take it as a personal rejection, a reason to be affronted?

WellErrr · 03/05/2017 09:04

Some men just feel really angry and threatened by women meeting up without them.

ICJump · 03/05/2017 09:11

Men and trans woman really don't have to be part of a feminist group. A group of woman get to decide how they want to agitate for change.

Datun · 03/05/2017 10:05

Today 09:04 WellErrr

Some men just feel really angry and threatened by women meeting up without them.

Couldn't agree more. And now it is discriminatory not include a man in women only group, if that man identifies as one.

Whether you want them there or not.

Xenophile · 03/05/2017 10:13

need to start thinking about how they include and promote trans-people

Ftt would be welcome. Because they're women.

Men take over discussions, feminism needs to be run by and for women. If men really want to be part of it, they will accept this with no dramas and be happy to take part in other ways.

fakenamefornow · 03/05/2017 10:17

Send Datun reply.

Then add that you'll be having some open meetings for men to attend so that they can be educated on women's rights, issues and oppression and how best men can change to help solve the problems women face due to the behaviour of men.

newdaddie · 03/05/2017 10:54

Yeah, I'll happily march for black rights. I won't insist I need to be in the room to talk about the issues because I'm white and without me they won't get anything changed

I'm the opposite (black & male) and completely agree Olenna

I wouldn't dream of demanding to be in the group but perhaps it's easier for me to find a bit of cognitive empathy because I have a personal perspective of both privilege and underprivilege from my gender and ethnicity respectively. So it might help to make him understand by finding his personal struggle/underprivilege to help him understand.

Or u could tell him to fuck off.

I'd probably go with the later.

venusinscorpio · 03/05/2017 11:01

I like the idea of the occasional open meeting for male allies to attend. Kind of like Ladies Night at the Freemasons ;)

PoochSmooch · 03/05/2017 11:43

If his first action towards a feminist group is to tell the women trying to start it that their aims aren't legitimate, then he is vastly unlikely to be any kind of decent ally.

Call yourselves a women's liberation group instead?

I've always been open to the idea that men could be feminists, and I've debated as much on here. That said, I have never personally met a man who I could hand on heart say lives up to his proclaimed feminism. The problem with dudes like in the OP, and with the concept that it's great when men want to get involved, is that you spend more time catering to the men, NAMALTing, and explaining things to them that are perfectly fucking obvious to women that it harms the ability to actually move forward and get stuff done. Women modify their speech when men are around. Dynamics change. Men generally get more airtime in any given conversation, and it's hard for women and men to break out of that - men in female dominated conversations feel shut out, belittled, and they act out on that. Unless they can address it (most won't).

Look at how often in happens in here. There are many conversations that I'd like to have, and have tried to have that get derailed by men spluttering about hurt feelings, or derailing into "egalitarianism". That's what happens IRL, too, I have found.

KatherinaMinola · 03/05/2017 11:45

Just tell him to fuck off

This.

slug · 03/05/2017 12:35

Ahh bless..... First send him here and then tell him to fuck off.

Datun · 03/05/2017 12:48

pooch has got it.

The problem with dudes like in the OP, and with the concept that it's great when men want to get involved, is that you spend more time catering to the men, NAMALTing, and explaining things to them that are perfectly fucking obvious to women that it harms the ability to actually move forward and get stuff done. Women modify their speech when men are around. Dynamics change

They don't understand feminism 101. You are armed with all this knowledge but then have to justify everything you say because they start disputing the basics.

Which you could use actually.

You could start the first session with a timeline of women's rights. Pointing out how women were treated, what they were called, the ridiculous and damaging attitudes. The legal battles.

By the time they've got through all that, not only will they have a better understanding, but their objections would die in the water.

TheSparrowhawk · 03/05/2017 13:00

Women don't actually 'need' to do anything a man tells them to do, whether that man identifies as a man or not.

I wish men could get this is into their fucking heads.

Datun · 03/05/2017 13:03

TheSparrowhawk

Oh, I totally agree. I only suggest informing someone for the benefit of other women who don't quite get it.

If all women understood feminism, it would make it so much more powerful.

ArcheryAnnie · 03/05/2017 13:15

I'm with everyone else just telling him to fuck off.

If his opener is "If it's a meeting for gender equality (which effectively IS what feminism means) then men HAVE to be involved in the discussion" then any attempt to educate him will be both boring and fruitless. You could invite him to educate himself about feminism on his own time, without having to give him any more of your time and attention.

Can you imagine what a meeting with this bloke in the room would be like? Urgh.

TheSparrowhawk · 03/05/2017 13:17

That wasn't directed at you Datun, just a general rant.

Regarding your post, though, I think your view is quite naive. It's not about people not getting it and needing education. It's about men not seeing women as fundamentally capable of stating their own truth - whatever women say no matter how well backed by evidence, will always be considered somehow lesser and easily dismissed.

TheSparrowhawk · 03/05/2017 13:24

Any men that I have ever talked to about feminism have been so stuck in their own privilege that they will always, without fail, try to tell what women what they think and feel. They will sit there, and with a totally straight face, actually inform women what women think. And they will entirely expect women to nod and thank them for their sage wisdom.

The other classic is:

Man: Women in the UK have nothing to worry about
Woman: 85,000 women in the UK are raped every year, that's pretty worrying
Man: Now you're just point scoring.

Oh right. Because claiming that 85,000 rapes a year is not worrying would make you look like a total asshole so instead you resort to pathetically devaluing what I'm saying. Mature.

It's just a totally pointless conversation.

Dervel · 03/05/2017 13:34

A male voice no matter how well intentioned acts to reinforce things we might want to be getting away from.

In some ways it's a bit of a minefield, the best example I can think of is this topical debate surrounding transsexuals. I am a firm terf sympathizer. I've read the arguments mainly from here and I can present the case pretty robustly now.

However the landscape of the discussion changes if I happen across one of my libfem pro trans friends. How forcefully do I put the case forward? Currently my position is to state what I think, but not to press.

Every interaction between men and women carries the legacy of violence and oppression that has preceded it. Obviously once interactions move past it you can form proper relationships be they professional, friendly or romantic, but it's always wise to keep a weather eye on what's gone before.

I think a standard "well I'm just egalitarian and blind to gender/race/whatever" might be the place we'd all like to get to, but we cannot just teleport there. We also have different starting points so that journey itself at points needs to be walked alone. The challenges of some of the pitfalls and terrain is different.

I think it's unhelpful for men to say they are feminists or even allies as to do so betrays a lack of awareness of where we all stand relative to one another.