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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men bashing

512 replies

PirateQueenie · 01/05/2017 14:57

Hi all,

I don't have a real purpose to this thread other than to just voice my confusion and possibly hear some other opinions.

I would identify as feminist - although for want of a better word, I would rather say I'm an egalitarian. I enjoy reading these threads, and comment on some. But what really disheartens me is all the man-bashing Ive seen. I have a male partner who is my world ♥ wonderful male friends and family members, and when I read some of the things on here I can't help but feel very defensive of the men in my life.

Is this the new wave of feminism? Or am I missing something? When I was growing up (with my mum as an avid feminist), I never heard "men this" or "men that" it was always about how women can strengthen and empower themselves WITHOUT putting men down.

OP posts:
GuardianLions · 04/05/2017 09:09

The men come and debate for fun, for pleasure, for academic or idle interest.

They forget that we're here because it's our life.

Yy choc

Xenophile · 04/05/2017 09:26

That doesn't make me any less sexist or misogynistic, it's my own behaviour determines that.

Patently.

GuardianLions · 04/05/2017 09:47

Also newdaddie I think women, particularly mothers of sons, feel uncomfortable with the harshness of male socialisation which is to always be in control or appear to be so.

We see weak, doubting, fearful boy children who are no different to girls and we want to allow them to express these things too, but know that if we don't 'toughen them up' they are likely to be 'toughened up' by school bullies. It is a real dilemma whether to protect versus prepare boys. I think it is such an upsetting dilemma, that a lot of mothers of sons don't stop to think who they are preparing their sons to be in control of or by what means they will maintain that control.

Along with that, we are all socialised to feel really uncomfortable and even hate seeing men appearing weak, fearful and not in control - or in othe words emasculated. (I don't think there is a female equivalent of being emasculated is there?). People rally around and pander to males to avoid this 'devastating' thing for males (in a Patriarchy) 'to be emasculated' ie- to not be, or appear to be, in control.

When people don't feel they can wholly back feminism because they have sons, brothers, etc, I think it is likely to have the 'fear of witnessing male "emasculation"' and it's consequences, lurking somewhere there.

cadnowyllt · 04/05/2017 10:06

Because MrsDB, not including men is mean and horrid, or something

I'm not sure it amounted to either 'mean' or 'horrid' but clearly it was prejudice. However, it was at the end of the day, Twisty's website and it was for her to decide as to whom she wanted posting comments. Fair enough I'd say.

HomityBabbityPie · 04/05/2017 10:17

I find it bizarre the idea that anyone would be uncomfortable with feminism because they have sons. Thank goodness I do have feminism - it's my best chance of raising my son to be a decent man in the face of everything else.

Xenophile · 04/05/2017 11:05

Shockingly to all cadno, you missed off the important part of my post in your quote. I know, it was a terrible mistake, and you really didn't mean it at all, so I'll just report the pertinent bit for you, to help you out.

There were men who posted on it (according to people who also posted on it, I can't say for sure) which suggests that men who got booted off it acted like spunk trumpets.

sticklebrix · 04/05/2017 11:16

Thank goodness I do have feminism - it's my best chance of raising my son to be a decent man in the face of everything else.

I completely agree Homity. That along with the fact that my DH is a good role model.

cadnowyllt · 04/05/2017 11:26

There were men who posted on it (according to people who also posted on it, I can't say for sure) which suggests that men who got booted off it acted like spunk trumpets.

But that's not her stated position on her website - she doesn't say that men are welcome on the basis they aren't spunk trumpets (or similar).

SylviaPoe · 04/05/2017 11:34

'I understood that feminism WAS meant to be about equality?'

Expat, with a major feminist issue like, maternal mortality rates, how is it helpful to see if women are being treated equally to men? Men don't get pregnant.

If we instead view feminism as being about women's rights, we can then look at what kind of support and healthcare women need to avoid death during pregnancy and childbirth.

The problem with taking an equality approach is that it often ends up with a focus on how women can become more like men, who are considered the default, rather than looking at the rights women need.

DJBaggySmalls · 04/05/2017 11:41

cadnowyllt
But that's not her stated position on her website - she doesn't say that men are welcome on the basis they aren't spunk trumpets (or similar)

Women dont have to hang out a banner to welcome men into all their spaces. Why would you believe you have a right to be everywhere?

HomityBabbityPie · 04/05/2017 11:43

The problem with taking an equality approach is that it often ends up with a focus on how women can become more like men, who are considered the default, rather than looking at the rights women need.

This x1000000000000000000000000000000

cadnowyllt · 04/05/2017 11:45

Why would you believe you have a right to be everywhere?

I don't. Might I suggest you read my earlier post sent earlier this morning ?

cadnowyllt · 04/05/2017 13:27

...and in any event, a 'right' is only due to a person by the State rather than by other individuals.

OlennasWimple · 04/05/2017 13:43

My determination to take down the patriarchy is redoubled this morning by the news that one of DH's (male) friends tried to commit suicide last week. A friend of a friend lost a (male) work colleague to suicide last month. Fucking toxic masculinity.

HomityBabbityPie · 04/05/2017 13:45

That's awful olenna Flowers

But - and I don't mean this in your case particularly - it is perfectly OK to say you are a feminist because you want to help women. We don't have to emphasise that it helps men too. It's ok to just stick up for women.

OlennasWimple · 04/05/2017 14:27

Yeah, I know Homity. But when MRAs men say "but what about things like male suicide rates, this proves that men don't have it easy either", I want to scream, shout and stamp my feet that it's the other side of the same coin that oppresses men. The pp upthread who talked about the fear of emasculation being so strong had it right, IMHO

I have a son as well as a daughter: I fight the good fight mostly on her behalf, but I also want my son to grow up in a society where it's OK for him to admit when things are tough and be able to seek help without being seen as weak and feeble.

OlennasWimple · 04/05/2017 14:29

*same coin that oppresses women

TimeforANewTwatName · 04/05/2017 15:29

Haven't quite finished reading this thread. But wanted to comment before I got side tracked.

mouse I regularly NC, and stray on and off these boards a lot, I have no problem with them, and yes I've had different views and expressed my opinions.

Many years ago I wrote a very damming post about feminists. I wholly believed modern feminism was the scourge of the earth. I argued aggressively about equality for all humans, as the classes with the elite at the top was the problem. (In some ways I still see this as a main problem)

I also waded in (not really understanding the full significance of the debate) on male and female brains, for obvious reasons I was questioned and asked for evidence every step of the way. As I believed in my convictions I went and found some, then more when requested, then peer reviews, then more evidence from the one of the most credible uni.

We argued about the use of a word, at which point I was tired, annoyed and deflated. I spat my dummy out and flounced. But that thread made me think, it made me value real evidence, peer reviews, and reading actual papers, and not something cherry picked for articles.

Later I'd come and read some of the stuff on here, to secretly scoff to myself but a few threads I agreed with, others I read then went away and thought about.

I don't agree with everyone/everything on here but that's life. Sometimes I learn stuff sometimes I don't.

All I can suggest to newbies is hang around, read through threads, there will probably always be someone who says what you wanted to say, then you see the replies.

Ask questions, have an opinion but be prepared to defend your opinion and not be offended/put off because some may disagree loudly or ask for evidence/facts/research/theories.

BertrandRussell · 04/05/2017 15:41

"here was a situation once whereby my partner and I went for dinner and when we left the restaurant I walked ahead and he waited and held the door open for the woman who was leaving behind him. She had a real go at him telling him "I don't need a man to hold the door open for me", as if he was patronising her. The thing is he does this for anyone, he's just polite! I was really surprised that anyone would be offended by this!"

Half way through the thread- but I had to stop and be amazed! This is the first time I have ever read of anyone witnessing this scenario in person. The other 487 times it happened to someone else and was being reported. I hope the OP took some pictures!

GuardianLions · 04/05/2017 15:58

Yes Bertrand it does whiff of bovine arse to me too..

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 04/05/2017 16:13

My dad will say that feminists yell at men that open doors for them

But when i asked him he had never seen or experienced it himself

He is 72 and an old school gentleman

Not to say thats its never happened to anyone obviously.

jellyfrizz · 04/05/2017 16:25

Isn't it just manners to hold the door open for someone whether you're a man or woman?

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 04/05/2017 16:30

Yes it is good manners to open doors for people if they are struggling or keep it open if you have just gone through yourself

cadnowyllt · 04/05/2017 16:39

Men routinely hold doors open for each other - oblivious of any threats to their masculinities.

sillage · 04/05/2017 16:40

My millennial niece had a Facebook rant about how the real problem between the sexes is that bitchy feminists have created an "epidemic" of women yelling at men holding doors open. When I asked her where she was the first time she witnessed a woman yell at a man for holding a door, she deleted the post.

Also, because men tend to be wearisome didactic asses when speaking to women about women's lives:

*Why would you believe you have a right to be everywhere?

I don't.*

What cadno means is not that he insists on his right to be everywhere, it's that he insists on his right to whine and throw rock-packed theoretical snowballs at feminism over a feminist woman daring to try and set the smallest of unenforceable boundaries on the internet.

Cadno has thoroughly soaked up masculinity's violation imperative. He doesn't want to "be" on IBTP or Mumsnet's feminism forum, he wants to know he can penetrate somewhere he isn't wanted at his leisure.

"Central to masculinity is a violation imperative. Men become ‘real men’ by breaking boundaries. The real brilliance of patriarchy is that it doesn’t just naturalize oppression. It sexualizes acts of oppression. It eroticizes domination and subordination, and then it takes that eroticized domination and subordination, and institutionalizes that into masculinity and femininity. So, it naturalizes, it eroticizes, and it institutionalizes.

The brilliance of feminism is that we figured that out.”

~ Lierre Keith